Drew Hunter -- another runner devastated by the "moving up" cult

Nope. Hunter's biomechanics did him in.

He had two or three years when he was a high school senior, I said.

What was his 400 in high school?

Tinman often talked about this, he only had 51s 400m speed in HS. Fisher, the other great HS runner in that era had 48s.

He also posted on his forum 4 years ago when his mother wanted to make him a miler but he recommended to focus on longer distances:

"Drew doesn't need to change course right now. We've talked about the training he needs and I stand by it still. He needs more CV, short speed like 60s that will aid his mechanics, his weakness now,, some drills, and plenty of hills and tempo running cycled into the mix. He's running under 9 minutes for 3200m on that in early February. All you need to do is keep the ball rolling. If he keeps it going, he should be running 8:50 without even pressing the pedal to the metal during the March-April time-frame, Some sharpening and he should be down near 8:40 at the end of outdoors as a junior, which is exceptional.

As I mentioned in a previous email to you, Drew is not a miler. He's very much like Craig Virgin (who didn't start running until his sophomore year in high school, just like Jim Ryun). Craig was a star endurance athlete, who ran a full 2 miles in 8:40 in the early 1970s, his third year of running, and he could clobber people in cross-country due to fantastic aerobic capacity and endurance. Craig was a star in college and beyond, winning two world cross country titles, setting the American record for 10,000m. I think Drew is the same as Craig."

You can't change who you are. He never had great sprinting mechanics, true sprinters or mid-distance runners got this naturally whereas someone like Drew would need to do a lot of supervised form training/drills. He also won't improve his 51s 400m speed much, maybe he was in 50s shape post-HS but not faster. His 1:48 800m was maxed out or very close with his speed. Meanwhile he destroyed Grant Fisher in fast XC races in HS and had phenomenal 3k and 3200 times. His current 5k PB is also extremely strong, there are 1:46/3:35 guys who can't break 13:30.

Guy who ran 3:57 indoors in high school is not a miler? Makes perfect sense.

Interesting thoughts...

Hope Hunter is able to come back to top form from his injuries.

Unsure what event will be Hunters best.

Your comment about destroying Fisher in XC is not true. Fisher destroyed Hunter in XC at Footlocker which was the only XC event they raced head to head.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Tinman often talked about this, he only had 51s 400m speed in HS. Fisher, the other great HS runner in that era had 48s.

Fisher running 48? Even on a relay that’s a stretch. I’ve heard 50/51 on the threads. Do you have a source?

...

Hunter is a 1500/3k runner as far as I can tell. He likes to down play it, but he really does have great 1500 ability and his mechanics compliment that event a lot more than they do a 5k or 10k.

That being said the 3k is clearly his sweet spot and if I were in the same position, I’m sure I would choose the 5k over the 15.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Meanwhile he destroyed Grant Fisher in fast XC races in HS and had phenomenal 3k and 3200 times. His current 5k PB is also extremely strong, there are 1:46/3:35 guys who can't break 13:30.

This Fisher comment is starting to make me think LateRunnerPhil is a well-done troll persona. Congrats, 9/10.

Somewhere on this site I read about his injury history and why he is out if Doha world championships now.

He already coped with major foot issues at the start of his season, and right when the problems seemed to get better he jumped into two back to back 80 mile weeks. That was the highest weekly mileage he ever did, and then mid-season and two times in a row and just after recovery from past injuries.

Now he is out with stress fractures...

I would give that coach a kick in his a$$.

Strawberry Fields wrote:

Your comment about destroying Fisher in XC is not true. Fisher destroyed Hunter in XC at Footlocker which was the only XC event they raced head to head.

You are right about XC, but Hunter did beat him twice that year when he was a Jr and Fisher a Sr (age difference only 4.5 months tho).

2015 comparison:

1500: Hunter 3:58.48 vs 3:58.77

Mile: Fisher 3:59.38 vs. 4:02.36

2 Miles: Hunter 8:42.51 vs. 8:43.57

FL XC: Fisher 15:02.1 vs. 15:13.2

Head-to-Head: Hunter 2 (1500m, 2 mile), Fisher 2 (Mile, XC)

Thinking that Fisher is supposedly more fast-twitch (48s 400m speed) and Hunter slow-twitch (51s 400m speed) would suggest that Fisher would win any slow race, but that clearly wasn't the case in the 1500 (btw both lost to Blake Haney in that race).

Hunter's coach Tinman was using these speeds as example of how his CV training allows Hunter to outkick Fisher despite him having more talent/400m speed. Fisher ran much lower mileage, so if he gets outkicked by Hunter it doesn't mean Hunter got more raw speed, it could just mean that in a fast race Fisher didn't have much left for a kick. Fisher was known to blast by everyone on the home straight, and it was also his racing tactic to focus on a sprint finish.

The only other reference point about Fisher's speed is his coach, who said in 2014 (one year before the famous 2015 races):

"How talented is Grant Fisher? “I don’t know,” admits Scannell, who thinks his charge probably has 50-second 400m speed now. “Fifty is not fast. So if I can get Grant into the 48-point range this year, I’ll be happy. He’s just getting to the point where he can get fast. But that question really honestly can’t be answered until he’s 21."

Whether he truly got him down to 48s 400m speed or not I can't tell, but it's unlikely. Fisher moved up to longer distances pretty quickly, it seemed like they figured out he actually didn't have the speed required to be a top miler these days and he was doing incredibly well at XC and longer distances on very low mileage (40 mpw in HS).

im skeptical when runners and coaches talk about their lack of 400 speed. For instance, there is no way Salazar only has 57s 400 ability. There are distance coaches that will hit their milers hard with 4x400s, giving several opportunities to test their speed. But even then, they are probably coming off a night where they already ran a either a mile, 2mile, 800, or some combination of those races.

couple that with some coaches not spending any time working on any speed endurance (really fast 150-300s) and you are not getting a good picture of their 400 ability.

Running cv reps, tempos, and 60s and not going tell you what a kid can run a 400 in. And I am a little skeptical of a kid running a 1:48 off of only 51 speed. Adults, sure. Kids, i just don't know.

Bottom line: kids not getting opportunities to show their 400 speed on top of not being given a 6 to 8 week period of doing real speed endurance work = we do not know what their 400 speed is.

Yeah but Brazier ran pretty well in XC off of even lower mileage. And he’s obviously significantly fast twitch (compared to hunter). So that doesn’t necessarily mean anything either way.

True, Tinman training does nothing to develop speed. Fastest pace he prescribes is 400m pace, even the hill sprints are not all-out. Other coaches like Magness and Salazar do WAY more for speed development, including all-out hill sprints and flat sprints which progress from 4x60 with plenty of rest to 100s and maybe even 150 for speed endurance.

The 1:48 was in Drew's senior year, his 400m speed increased at that time he was probably at 49 high/50 flat which is just enough to run 1:48 based off his CV training with decent mileage and plenty of shorter reps at 800m/mile pace. His mother was a solid 400m sprinter. The focus on 5k is probably due to Tinman who said Drew isn't a miler and didn't believe in his speed.

I agree with you that Drew probably never found out what his true 400m speed was, since Tinman doesn't focus on developing it. 48-mid would already be enough to be a world class miler, Willis said he struggles breaking 50 FAT and his PR is a 48 mid in a 4x400 relay. Not every miler is a Lewandowski/Kiprop/Coe-type with 46-47s 400m speed, there are many with 48-49s that run 3:30 and compete at the highest level.

Hunter was definitely in sub-50 shape in 2016, his times were too fast to suggest otherwise( remember, they were hoping to run 3:53 that season). Unfortunately, it seems like he’s fallen off since.

Fisher, on the other hand was probably around 50 high. He had a great closing 200 sprint, but relatively poor speed endurance. Overall it’s very difficult to gauge, because unlike any of the other studs, he decided to move up almost immediately in college, and has always been one to neglect his speed.

Pound sand you racist d-bag

You know, he can still recover from his injury and have a great career.

Rotich the Rotich wrote:

Hunter was definitely in sub-50 shape in 2016, his times were too fast to suggest otherwise( remember, they were hoping to run 3:53 that season). Unfortunately, it seems like he’s fallen off since.

Fisher, on the other hand was probably around 50 high. He had a great closing 200 sprint, but relatively poor speed endurance. Overall it’s very difficult to gauge, because unlike any of the other studs, he decided to move up almost immediately in college, and has always been one to neglect his speed.

Yep agree with his sub 50 shape. Also yes, he hasn't closed a race the way he did in HS. They developed his endurance/aerobic capacity to a really high level, but even in a 5k he needs to be able to finish very strong. I know many runners that were great at 800/mile, but once they started training for 5k and 10k with higher volumes and threshold work, their 400m speed went down. You can't have an optimal 400m time and 5k time, it's just not possible. Getting the right range and both to a high level is key, unless you are someone like Salazar and Carlos Lopes who just brute-forced their way through races and already dropped down the hammer several k's before the finish line.

About Fisher, yes. I think Hunter had a better kick in absolute terms, but Fisher really had this skill to absolutely explode at the end of races on the last 100-200m. Fisher was able to unleash his kick in fast races like no one else.

But that was also predictable. His losses to Hunter were both due to longer kicks, starting 400-500m out. Fisher only did 40 mpw in HS, and did no speed work - his coach said: "800m paced-reps are too hard, he is not ready for them yet". While he had the talent/raw speed, his speed endurance was weak/untrained and that's part of the reason why he lost to Hunter in some races.

rare wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Meanwhile he destroyed Grant Fisher in fast XC races in HS and had phenomenal 3k and 3200 times. His current 5k PB is also extremely strong, there are 1:46/3:35 guys who can't break 13:30.

This Fisher comment is starting to make me think LateRunnerPhil is a well-done troll persona. Congrats, 9/10.

Yup, Fisher didn’t lose at XC in his last two years of high school.

Juice Springsteen wrote:

You know, he can still recover from his injury and have a great career.

I'm just going to leave this one here.

FFF wrote:

Juice Springsteen wrote:

You know, he can still recover from his injury and have a great career.

I'm just going to leave this one here.

BOTH OF YOU GET OUT OF HERE WITH YOUR RATIONAL AND OBJECTIVE STATEMENTS.