Official Pikes Peak Discussion Thread

You put too much faith in the internet

Waverly wrote:

Here's another course record to bait the trolls.

http://live-raceresults.com/imogene/course-records/

Matt C. Imogene Pass 2:05 - people say the typical race result is spot on to your rad marathon time.

^^^He meant road marathon time. And yes, that's actually what it says on the website - mostly to help flatlanders get a sense how it might go. I didn't believe it was meant to be gospel - however, the first time I ran it I went roughly one minute under my marathon PR (LOL)!!!

But it's still just a guide - obviously as Matt's record shows, some will excel in the mountains beyond their road abilities, while others vice-versa. I'm sure Kipchoge could destroy that record - if he didn't destroy his hips, knees, ankles first on the descent. I took a full header on that descent once and my knee was a pumpkin for a week!

Smb wrote:

REAL. wrote:

Smb, Sage is calling out why wouldn't have Carpenter gone full throttle for singular Ascent sub-2 rather than a mid-marathon Split. We are all asking that question and his analogy is spot-on. Can you imagine Kipchoge going 58:05 in his next marathon attempt?

I don't know, but maybe because he liked competing in the PPM better than the PPA? Maybe there was more prize money.

(And maybe that isn't really what Sage was saying.)

It might have been the very next year he tried his own version of "breaking 2" (he did not run the marathon that year):

Saturday, August 20th, 1994

PLACE POS/DIV NAME AGE CITY ST TIME

1 1/213 MATT CARPENTER 30 COLORADO SPGS CO 2:09:35

Obviously came up quite short, who knows why (fitness, weather, etc...)? I vaguely recall something about it on his blog, but that's long gone as far as I can tell. It was after this he went on a several year hiatus to protest some of the PP policies - focusing instead on international Sky Races.

You might be thinking of the 1997 Ascent, when Carpenter was reportedly going for the record and trying to break two hours but got into a battle with Martin Rodriguez and ended up running 2:10. If Carpenter had been in 2:00 or better shape, I don't think Rodriguez would have been much of a problem for him that day, so I don't think the record would have gone anyway.

http://skyrunner.com/story/1997a1.htm

http://skyrunner.com/story/1997a2.htm

This Imogene record is not nearly as stout as PP. I’m sure Joe Gray or Walmsley could get it if they had any incentive or desire to.

Perhaps you're right no one will ever crack 3:20 again. As far as KJ being altitude trained, just check his training spreadsheet on the first page of this thread. He doesn't appear to have done much acclimatization at all this year, other than in April. So unless he didn't record it doesn't look like he did much at all. He's also got his vo2max tests in there which if I am reading it correctly has been as high as 92 but as low as 74.8.

According to his spreadsheet, he sleeps in an altitude room every night.

where are you seeing that? What tab in the spreadsheet? On the Acclimatisation tab it only lists April (training 9 and sleeping 5).

Column N on TD2019 tab he doesn't track it anymore, but the column is still there. Doubt he took it out of his home.

Not_Quite wrote:

This Imogene record is not nearly as stout as PP. I’m sure Joe Gray or Walmsley could get it if they had any incentive or desire to.

Dakota gave it a shot last year and went home DEVASTATED (2:13). I was kinda surprised he couldn't go any better, but I think he mentioned something about not being recovered from PPM (which doesn't count for comparative purposes as Matt set both records in the same year).

That said - as a race course it does seem like one where "road-cred" translates well, given it's nearly entirely road (albeit jeep road), so I could easily see Jim or Joe smoking that record.

I live in Colo Springs, and just want to add that Soccer practice was rained out Wed and Thurs and Friday last week, so ideas that it was somehow super dry all week, or for weeks before PP Race weekend, are quite misleading.

I don't think the weather leading up to race weekend could have been be better... rained a lot Wed and Thurs, even rained a little Friday evening and some Friday night, then dry all weekend... that's basically what you want, so there's not a chance of canceling due to Snow or any other Precip up top. It's certainly what my 4 friends who came from out of state to do the Double wanted!

They moved the Races back a week this year. And the RD has said they're considering moving Race Weekend into September trying to get clearer skies. That IS possible, but Snow is also possible up high by then. In fact, despite it being very warm over Race weekend this year, chance of snow up top on Pikes Peak this week already, is tomorrow 40%, Friday 60%, and Saturday 50%. So you take your chances on Weather every year. Those waiting for 'better weather' leading into Race Weekend may get it next year, or it may be years from now. On the other hand, while it may seem unlikely that it'll be that hot again, it's just warmer, at least this year, to the extent that it's not been the historical average high ALL MONTH yet. In fact 8-13 degrees warmer than Ave is the norm right now.

I didn't go up this year yet, I'm doing long Bike Rides, and Ultras, with some still to come in the next couple/few weeks, but have done the Ascent and/or Marathon every year since 2005, generally going bottom to top 7-8 times a year. The course is no different to me than 14 years ago, except for erosion from the side down low in the W's that occured when the first made the Incline legal and had not yet put up fencing, so that folks could just bail out anywhere on the Incline and come South looking to go down Barr Trail. And that has since be fixed.

It has always been loose in spots just above tree-line, to the point I would not wear anything near 'racing flats' for exactly that reason. Those who do, will certainly see slippage in those areas, but it's not significantly worse over the 14 years I've been doing it.

That Dakota went downhill faster than anyone ever last year, is as good a testament to trail conditions as anything.

Folks who want to characterize MC's record as so good it's bogus, may be missing how he trained that year... and then didn't do the Marathon again for 5 years... but the way he approached it that year wasn't any different than some of his other course records, which stand to this day.

He didn't just have a good day, or good conditions that day he got the PPM course record, he trained like a madman for a over a year... after he got to the top in 2:05 the year before, and still got 2nd. After that 'loss' he did no races for the rest of that year. He got to where he knew every footstrike on that course. He trained similarly for his Leadville 100 CR, after he blew up the year before but stick-leg-walked-it-in determined to finish, then over the next year got to where he learned how many sips of water he would need to carry, and didn't carry any more than that, between the various aid stations. Which was just like when he went back a year later and won with CR at the California North Face 50, after getting 2nd to Uli S. the year before.

In the case of Pikes Peak he then didn't do the Marathon again for 5 years.

His San Juan Solstice win and course record was not a result of obsession year-over-year.. he was just 'training for Leadville' the first year, and decided the next year that it had been a bad idea to race that hard 50 as a lead-up to the 100.

And that CR has since been broken.

I think Walsmley and several-to-many others might have the raw talent to break the Leadville CR, but not if they don't get serious altitude for a good long time, and focus on that race, learn that course- and certainly not if they come do the Incline in a super-human time the day before!

In that leadville CR, Matt had no Aid Stations 'stops' longer than 30 seconds, and some he never broke stride.

In the case of Pikes Peak, I think it will take not just altitude and 'uphill training' somewhere else, but a lot more course-specific experience to get anywhere close to the record.

I hope folks who are 'disturbed' by the Record will come out and try the Pikes Peak Ascent, twice. The MOST fun is seeing if you can do ANY better year over year. It's VERY hard to improve at all (and BIG KUDOS to Sage!) because going any faster down low when it's tempting, means you'll simply suffer for it up top. Even dialing in Nutrition is a different animal as you burn more simple carbs at altitude and it's really hard to take anything in when you're gasping. Lol.

Anyone 'extrapolating times' for the way up from the Pace Calculator, better always factor in, each mile higher is simply harder to maintain any kind of pace, due to accumulated exhaustion from going almost nothing but 15% uphill for almost 8,000ft the whole half marathon, (there are a few downhills so the trail Ave is 11% overall, but including those downhills the res of the trail is mostly 15%!) let alone the additional altitude as you climb, the combination of which makes it exponentially harder in the last few miles. That Calculator is specifically designed for someone WITH massive Altitude Acclimation, and you'll simply slow down relevant to it, otherwise. Marc Lauenstein went from 10th to 3rd passing 7 of today's greatest Trial Runners in the last 5k to the Summit! He didn't slow down as much as everyone else, which is basically all that is required.

I've see over and over for years, folks posting how they were fine until 9.5-10.5 miles, then the ataxia, and dizzyness, and the sense that the Mtn is trying to Kill you overcome whatever 'Plan' you had, down low. At 12,500ft and up, and it's still a very longs ways up, on rocky-nasty 'trail' you're really just working with 'The Will To Live'.

I've had 10-12 friends come do the races over the years. Several of them have been excellent runners, who did the treadmill work, and were in the best shape of their lives, and placed in their age group, or were top 10 overall, despite being flatlanders, but one of them had won the largest 10K in their state, and got to A-Frame in 1:30 and then blew up, and it took an hour a mile the rest of the way and they never came back. Sometimes being a great runner, or in great shape, doesn't mean anything regarding Altitude.

Would love for anyone with a desire to see what it's really about, to come on out! There's probably still some very good, clear-sky weekends still to come into September this year, even!

See you on the Mtn!

Great stuff, thanks.

Side note: I'll pass on the PP invite though - it's one of my lesser favorite mountains in the state (re: logistics - parking, crowds, etc...)

Are you Matt?! Well I don't know anything about soccer practice being rained out, but the trail was pretty darn dry and hot on race day! The wind above treeline blew some of that loose rock around too I believe. Conditions were considerably slower than last year I'd say. Anyway, considering the course changes at Leadville 100 don't you think we could at least consider Rob Krar's time there at least "on par" with Matt's CR there? I would. The Leadville record is very beatable I think (Rob has already shown that)....so is Imogene. What time did Matt run TNF50 in in SF? That course has changed a lot over the years but it is an event I've won as well. What I don't get is how Matt *only* ran 2:40 at Sierre-Zinal back in '93 and then 3 weeks later blasted a 2:01 Ascent followed by a 1:15 downhill. I only mention this because this is exactly the race sequence that guys like Kilian and myself did this year (although we only had 2 weeks between...although I don't think that was much of a factor). The downhill splits and records on Pikes are not a surprise (1:15 is way faster than I could go down in, but even an Alex Nichols or Max King or Kilian can go down in 1:18....and obviously Dakota last year went down faster in 1:14), But that 2:01 climb is absolutely ridiculous. I just can't wrap my head around it. Why were his Marathon en route splits seemingly always faster than his Pure Race Ascent splits? I mean it would be like if Joe Gray (who has won the Ascent in 2:05-2:08) suddenly ran a 2:02 for the Ascent....BUT only when he decides to do the FULL Marathon and it becomes his halfway en route split....but then also his new, flat out Ascent PR? I know Matt was great at high altitude and had a high Vo2max and knew every inch of the course...but at the end of the day he was also *only* at 2:19:xx marathoner and *only* a 59-mid guy at Mt. WA at his best at those races. I bring up those times because they are very similar to what I've run in those events (I've actually slightly run faster). And Joe Gray has run even faster...including like a 1:02-1:03 half marathon and a low 28-min 10km. Obviously I have a much lower Vo2max then those guys and don't know the Pikes Peak course super intimately, but I'd say there is no way I could ever crack 3:27-3:26....even if i moved to Manitou and dedicated my year/life to the race. Granted I am a bit older now at 33 as well. What I ran on Sunday could stay as my PR on the course (3:39) as far as I know, but I'd like to think in cooler conditions maybe I could have gone a few minutes faster. It is the most "untouchable" record in MUT Running IMO.

Those of us who haven't run Pikes Peak, and have heard and are aware of Matt Carpenter's status as the king of this mountain want to believe that he not only had special physical advantages (high VO2 max and slight physique), but had a fierce mental approach to racing and training that set him apart from

most ordinary runners.

His seemingly untouchable record which Sage has a hard time explaining with numbers and time calculations might have more to do with the mystery of why Matt was so determined and focused to run so

fast up and down this mountain.

Matt's motivations and desire are sometimes hard to quantify for us mere mortals.

T.M.A.D.D.D.H.A.S.F.N.E.

.Trump2020OP-the real one........ wrote:

Those of us who haven't run Pikes Peak, and have heard and are aware of Matt Carpenter's status as the king of this mountain want to believe that he not only had special physical advantages (high VO2 max and slight physique), but had a fierce mental approach to racing and training that set him apart from

most ordinary runners.

His seemingly untouchable record which Sage has a hard time explaining with numbers and time calculations might have more to do with the mystery of why Matt was so determined and focused to run so

fast up and down this mountain.

Matt's motivations and desire are sometimes hard to quantify for us mere mortals.

T.M.A.D.D.D.H.A.S.F.N.E.

You talk like all the fanboyz of Sky/Ineos cycling team, who repeat the ridiculous mantra of Dave Brailsford that his boys simply train harder and are more committed to victories than the rest of pro cyclists. Yeah, Kilian, Sage, etc. are less determined and focused than out-of-this-world MC and are unable to break his record. Believe the mystery even, if it usually means some bad stuff.

Sage

Why were his Marathon en route splits seemingly always faster than his Pure Race Ascent splits?

My wife and I have lived in Manitou since 1992. She and Matt ran a lot together in 1997 thru 1998. We were both original members of the Incline Club. Leading up to my wife's first win at PPA, Matt had her also sign up for the marathon. He told her he felt you could run faster because there were less crowds and the atmosphere of the race was more relaxed. She did double in 1998 but after accomplishing a huge goal we partied a bit too much after her win and she only took 3rd at the marathon finish even after leading the Ascent portion ~3:02. She was fortunate to win 2 more times and had many top 10 finishes even into her late 40s. She did the Incline this afternoon and did comment on how rutted out it was.

I personally think the time to think of most, in terms of what then happened in 93, is the 2:05 the year before, on the Ascent portion of the Marathon, and getting 'beat' (finishing 2nd (by miles) to Ricardo Mejia).

IDK how many folks have gone 2:05, in open Ascent OR Marathon, but Matt did in 92, then fell apart, cracked a rib, and, I think this is the important part, he didn't just 'come back the next year determined to not get beat again' he trained for nothing else BUT that, the whole next year. I think we all might be surprised how much we could improve if we knew exactly how to maintain perfectly even effort, for us, the whole way, along every part of the course, and not blow. Plus were getting all that altitude from training for and on that particular Mtn.

A VERY high % of Age Grouper Placers, and often overall Placers in almost any other year than when Skyrunner, or the Golden Trail Series is here, are "Incline Club" members, who start training for the Pikes Peak runs, every year in late November.

That they are at the top doing 3-2-1s every weekend all summer makes it astonishing that anyone from the flatlands places in their age group, or overall, but folks do. Otherwise, these people have a lock on a lot of the placements through simple repetition of the top portions of the Course, alternating with bottom-to-top training runs.

People wonder what might have happened if Matt was pushed that day in 93. I just don't think he needed a push, he had that motivation inside for a long time after getting beat in 92.

When I listen to 'Til I Collapse, by Eminem I think sometimes of Matt listening to it over and over Training for, and during the Leadville CR the 2nd year after it demolished him (except he DID finish, walking straight-legged for 30+ Miles WHO DOES THAT?)... that song embodies a lot of that Spirit. And I also sing it out loud in the W's sometimes... my theory being "Bears Hate Eminem". Smile. (And I have encountered a Bear or 2 near the top of the W's to about No Name Creek, since I go Super Early- 4am-ish usually... and I am NOT cool with seeing Bears. Haha.)

I certainly am not Matt... I'm an almost Exactly Middle of the Packer at 4:25 or so for the Ascent, walking/power hiking most of the whole way (several years that was the exact Average Time) and I have only run the Marathon twice- once to Celebrate the 10th year of being able to walk again, and then the next year when I Doubled. I didn't know Matt's 'flatland Marathon time' or how that 'should correlate to running above Treeline', or any of that, but I moved to Colo Springs in 2005 after a Bicycle Accident that put the head of my Femur through the Socket of my Hip, to "Pursue an Active Lifestyle" in any fashion I could, and found going up the Peak was 'hard, effort wise', but not so hard on the Joints, and so I studied some of Matt's info on Pikes Peak 15 years ago, and personally refined some of his techniques to aid me in just 'Participating'.

Matt talked in his book on "Training for the Pikes Peak Ascent and Marathon", about not stepping ON rocks, but over them. I go a 'step further', so to speak, haha, in that I put my heel and back half of my foot on rocks, to give my lower legs a rest as I ascend. My brother and a friend of his each claim the other lost that book, 10+ years ago, which is a shame, it's a treatise on Pikes Peak, like nothing I've ever seen on any other race. They have it in the Special Collections area of the Downtown Pikes Peak Library... you can look at it, I think, but not check it out.

As I said earlier in this thread my family and I gave Matt a ride down from the top once when I took a day off to go up on a Tuesday in late July as a near-last bottom-to-top training run. I looked in my training log and it was July 2010 (I thought before that it was 2011), and I asked him if he thought Leadville was as fast as it could be done. He said he saw room for improvement, but age had caught up to him- so he had no plan to go back. I'm sorry, I don' t really know how that course has changed, but I'm sure you're spot on, having the sense that some have gone that fast already, relative to course changes.

I WANTED that day, to ask about the North Face Cali redemption, because I had heard/read that Matt had "Seen Uli Steidl for months, whenever he ran uphill" but figured it just wasn't right to pepper him with questions the whole way down.

I have no doubt a lot of folks have 'run faster' since, at North Face Cali, since there wasn't any real altitude at all, but sure is a lot of up and down. But it was another in the line of 'how Matt did his best racing'.

Last year the Marathon course was surely better, but of course the 'cancelled the Ascent' letting folks only run up halfway, due to Weather concerns, the day before, and it rained overnight. Then the high in Colo Springs the day of the Marathon was only 75. No one really WANTS that to be how the weekend goes... no matter the course was better for the Marathoners, not when people from the world over come to do the runs.

I saw another thread that has degraded into nothingness, and want to say here that Sage's TREMENDOUS accomplishment, is just a Brilliant Achievement! Bravo!

There are a lot of veiled, and not so subtle insinuations on this thread that imply that MC’s marathon record is not legitimate so I’m curious about poster’s theories. It seems to me there are 5-6 possibilities to explain the 3:16 in 1993 (in no particular order).

MC was doping. If this is true he apparently only doped in 1993 because none of his other times are close. But from what I have read MC was obsessive about his health and his diet and what he put in his body.

MC “cheated” or cut the course. Others more knowledgeable can weigh in here about the feasibility and how much of advantage he would gain. But again, he apparently only did this in 1993.

There was an issue with the timing. Maybe the official timer stopped for a few minutes on the ascent and no one noticed. Maybe it wasn’t accurate. But there probably would have been others monitoring his progress and tracking his time over the course.

There was some sort of conspiracy to fake the time and ensure no one would ever come close to the record (although Mejia came within 5 minutes just 2 years later).

The course was faster, but only in 1993. This also doesn’t account for the drop in women’s times over the years.

There was a favorable confluence of circumstances for MC on that date where he was at peak fitness, conditions were favorable, and he just had a “zone” performance that he could never replicate.

I don’t know, but to me the last explanation seems as good as anything else I could come up with. I’m also curious about those who doubt the legitimacy of MC’s 3:16 if they feel the same about Mejia’s times. It’s too bad Matt did not run the marathon in 1995. That could have been an epic race.

For the record, in addition to Matt's CR, to date Kilian has also failed to beat Ricardo Mejia's two best times, Martin Rodriguez's best time, as well as Al Waquie's best time. This includes the Ascent AND full marathon splits for all of those performances. It might also be notable that all of them consistently lived and trained at altitude - and only two of them possibly had any association with each other (I believe both Ricardo and Martin were from Mexico City and may have been teammates/training partners, but that is only speculation). Several 17000'+ dormant volcanos with runnable trails (maybe not quite to the summit, but still very high) are within a short drive from the city. Convenient - is it any mystery why those two excelled at Pike's Peak? Al - a Native American from a remote tribal village in New Mexico had no ties to anyone - he just ran up/down mountains for the love of it, for his ancestors, and for pride. And set his PR in 1981. Nearly all of this has already been noted on this thread for anyone who could be bothered to read it.

What was this Sky/Ineos type conspiracy theory you were talking about again?