Tinman’s Basic Training Terms

And 5-8 years from now someone will come out with new terms for the same thing.

When it comes to running very little changes, and most "new" ideas are things that have been done in the past it's just that in this new system 1 or 2 of the standard ingredients of a training program are stressed over the others.

Calculator on his site has a training paces tab which gives you paces based on your race results.

http://runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php

The below comes from paces given by Tinman; my own speculation:

Threshold is what's commonly called Anaerobic Threshold and corresponds to 1h effort (slightly faster than HM pace). Training increases oxygen uptake in muscle fibers. Main training methods are long intervals like 3 x 3k with 2-3 min recoveries.

Tempo is very similar to Threshold but with lower speed intensity and continuous run of 20-40 mins. Tempo is a great mental workout too as it forces concentration on pace.

CV is roughly 10k pace; corner stone of Tinman training.

Aerobic power and V02 max are 5K and 2mi paces used for short intervals like 6 x 800 (5K pace) r=2' or 12 x 400 (2mi pace) r=1'. Recovery is usually the same as length of repetition. Increases maximum oxygen uptake.

Erik Hejssan wrote:

Hi i have been trying to find defintions for Tinmans training terms, including how to train for the different terms.

You'll find a few more of the paces discussed here:

Where did you find the information that you posted, out of curiosity?

webby wrote:

Where did you find the information that you posted, out of curiosity?

Tinman's forum. Lots of great stuff there, I read every thread at least 3 times.

If you want Tinman's system condensed down to five points in layman's terms do this:

1) Your primary workouts should be between half-marathon and 10k pace

2) Your secondary workouts should be between 1500m and faster than 800m pace

3) Your mileage should focus on consistency and not a big number

4) Your hard longer intervals should be used very sparingly

5) Your races of 3000m and above take care of #4

That is really all there is to it. A lot of programs do this without describing terminology. For most people it is easier to conceptualize it in the form of race paces.

14, that is more or less your system, too?

gotitgood wrote:

14, that is more or less your system, too?

I primarily use a form of that. Renato, Ingebrigstens, Nick Bideau, and other coaches are the same. Some college coaches like Mike Smith and Rob Conner do this as well.

Sub 14,

Where would one go to learn more about really thoroughly understanding a system like this?

iwanttoleanmorw wrote:

Sub 14,

Where would one go to learn more about really thoroughly understanding a system like this?

Ironically you are on the website that is the best for what you are looking for. Get comfortable with the search function and scouring mountains of useless posts. A lot of the older stuff on here is especially gold. Alternatively, you could type in any of those coaching names in google followed by the word "training" and good stuff could pop up. People have the writings of Renato condensed and slightly translated online. Very similar to the John Kellogg compilation of posts that was put into a PDF document. He was the guy who coached Wejo after college and also when he was in HS.

Nick Bideau is not that difficult to find either. Mostly search for Melbourne TC stuff. He hasn't done much talking himself but plenty of his athletes have shared what he does. Australians have a system called the "Complex System" which they use and it is similar to his stuff as well. Don't be fooled though, it isn't very complex at all and that is partly why it works so well.

Tinman's best posts are on his website in which he hardly uses any more called therunzone.com. It is interesting to compare his old letsrun.com posts to some of his more recent therunzone posts and see how his training has changed over time.

Mike Smith's training was leaked on here awhile ago. Google "Mike Smith Training NAU letsrun.com forum" and you should find the thread. One of the google doc links is still up I believe. Pay special attention to how he scaffolds the progression of workouts and which workouts he DOESN'T focus on. You would be shocked to see how little "hard" running they do.

As for Rob Conner, his stuff is hard to find and conflictual. The training is vastly different to what it was in the early 2000s. You can find articles about the change and see workout videos of their longer tempos, but it doesn't give you the whole picture. There is an interview with him in discussing his cycling of workouts that is tough to find. His guys post on strava sometimes to corroborate that. I had a runner a couple years ago who was friends with one of their top 5 the year they got 4th at NCAAs and he showed me his training logs (sorry Rob), and it is very similar as well. Basically they go 1 long tempo ("steady state"), 1 sessions of threshold-10k work, and 1 session of faster than 5k work. They just continually cycle that throughout the whole damn year without fail.

What's your opinion about the JS coach who marches on with rocket speed?

Former Sub 14:00 wrote:

gotitgood wrote:

14, that is more or less your system, too?

I primarily use a form of that. Renato, Ingebrigstens, Nick Bideau, and other coaches are the same. Some college coaches like Mike Smith and Rob Conner do this as well.

Renato and Ingebrigtsens are NOT the same. Just inform you.

Former Sub 14:00 wrote:

If you want Tinman's system condensed down to five points in layman's terms do this:

1) Your primary workouts should be between half-marathon and 10k pace

2) Your secondary workouts should be between 1500m and faster than 800m pace

3) Your mileage should focus on consistency and not a big number

4) Your hard longer intervals should be used very sparingly

5) Your races of 3000m and above take care of #4

That is really all there is to it. A lot of programs do this without describing terminology. For most people it is easier to conceptualize it in the form of race paces.

This is a nice summary except many of Tinman's posts talk about "Tinman Tempo" which is essentially Marathon pace (if I understand correctly).

He writes about this easier tempo pace quite a bit on his website. Ironically, the training I have seen his elite runner do (mostly Strava before they stopped posting) has much less of this MP training and conforms more to the Threshold-CV zone for the bulk of workouts.

Tinman has been a coach for several decades now and still only a marathoner at 2:12 and the results of Hunter. Not so much

to be excited about!?

Just a dude he is wrote:

Tinman has been a coach for several decades now and still only a marathoner at 2:12 and the results of Hunter. Not so much

to be excited about!?

There is a TON more, he just doesn't advertise all his achievements. He hasn't work with many elite athletes yet, just in recent years he is getting some decent runners in Tinman elite. Most talented runners just went to a college coach after HS or joined a pro team like Brooks Beasts, NAZ, NOP, BTC, etc. Seemed logical for talented runners to join a pro team and get a pro contract than to pay a person called Tinman for coaching, right?

Some examples of what he DID achieve:

Broke the 12-year world age-group records for the 5,000 meters (16:44) and 2-miles (10:28) with Grace Ping.

Coached Kevin Miller, a Master's runner from average to state records and times of 15:51/33:01/1:15 in his 50s. Won 3 back-to-back events in USA Indoor Nationals master's with 2:05/4:33/9 in his 50s.

Coached Drew Bean to a multi state-champ in HS, and after to a 1:06 half at 19 and 2:24 full at 20.

No need to mention the fantastic progression of Drew Hunter from freshman in HS to representing the USA in a world championship. Or the successes of other Tinman elites like Parsons, Austin, Fischer, Winter, etc. These guys weren't good enough for a pro-contract before they joined Tinman, but since have been progressing at fantastic rate.

Tinman had great success with runners from the young Ping he started coaching at 9 years old all the way to master's runners in their 50s and 60s. His training system is very different from others, but it makes sense and works. It's almost impossible to get injured with it, which is what slows down the progress of most runners these days.

Why do I always get a feeling that you LateRunnerPhil is Tinman himself? The coaching ''cases'' you mentioned is really nothing special.

Makes the future bright! wrote:

Former Sub 14:00 wrote:

I primarily use a form of that. Renato, Ingebrigstens, Nick Bideau, and other coaches are the same. Some college coaches like Mike Smith and Rob Conner do this as well.

Renato and Ingebrigtsens are NOT the same. Just inform you.

They have the same foundation where there is very little emphasis on race specific work. That doesn’t come till the end. Almost everything they do is at the paces that support the primary event. Renato is much more methodical, complex, and mathematical in how he does it but that doesn’t mean it is nexesssrily different at its core. Nick Bideau is the simplest of them all but that still doesn’t take away the main reason why this kind of training works. We all get caught up on the semantics but lose out on the big picture. A lot of these guys are doing the same thing just different ways going about it. All the while thinking they are the special ones which is hilarious to see.

Sub 14,

What is the best place to see Nick Bideau's philosophy in action?

I've found the following ,but is there anything better?

http://www.glenhuntly-athletics.com/training-ideas/nic-bideau-training

https://beaconhillstriders.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/M-L-Distance-Training-Nic-Bideau.pdf

No,they don't have the same foundations .

Canova has his phases but Ingebrigtsens not! What Gjert told is that his guys this year haven't been over 5.5 mmol lactate yet in training , and still Jakob and Filip did 3:30-3:31 at 1500 m and Jakob 13:02 at 5000m! `They do race specific work all year round but 300/400s at mostly 3k-5 k race pace that will not reach the need of more lactate than 5.5 mmol that will be the net level in the bloodstream.It's two completely different systems!