\"It is incredibly arrogant to think that 15 min and 25 min 5k runners don\'t have anything in common.\"
are you even f***ing serious? the only thing in common is that their time in minutes ends in *5. running under 5 minutes per mile just might be a little different than slogging along over 8 minutes a mile. sure both people could be trying their hardest and working hard for their time, but to say they have anything in common is ridiculous
you know it wrote:
"It is incredibly arrogant to think that 15 min and 25 min 5k runners don't have anything in common."
are you even f***ing serious? the only thing in common is that their time in minutes ends in *5. running under 5 minutes per mile just might be a little different than slogging along over 8 minutes a mile. sure both people could be trying their hardest and working hard for their time, but to say they have anything in common is ridiculous
both are just part of the slugfest that will never make a living in the sport.
Jizzmo wrote:
What more could he say. If I remember in the article where he addressed the minimalis movement, he stated that it was fine for those that are very effeciant runners, but others my need something more. Isn't it just THAT simple?
You are right about what he said, but he is wrong. At least as far as my personal experiences go. I ran in pronation control shoes my first 3 years in highschool, because I have bad pronation in my right. My senior year through my junior year in college I wore lighter trainers that were neutral. Since then till now (2 years out of college) I have been wearing light weight trainers and flats. I recently bought a pair or light weight trainers with motion control. They f***ed my foot up that pronates so bad I only got 133 miles on them in a eight days.
Running in a lower profile show that's neutral has help my foot strike tremendously and I highly recomend it.
You shouldn't listen to that guy just because he is fat and out of touch, well, maybe him being fat should actually be taken into account, but whatever, experiment and find what works for you. Guys like him are just as stupid as half of the guys on here. Take it with a grain of salt.
BroBro
No offense, but the guy's columns are usually about some 25:00 5K runner who wants a stability shoe and the adventurous task of finding which one fits best.
Why doesn't he write about a real and controversial topic that has piqued the interest of a bunch of serious athletes?
If I remember right, he made a brief and dismissive remark a few months ago. I don't think he's a fan.
Maybe he knows better!
Or perhaps those 'stability' shoes bring in more dollars to his store!
questioning wrote:
Why doesn't he write about a real and controversial topic that has piqued the interest of a bunch of serious athletes?
No Offense taken. I just don't know where this "bunch of serious athletes" are? Certainly you can't mean the group of 15 min 5k guys on these boards? If that is the case, then your definition of "serious athlete" is incredibly low.
Texas Jack wrote:
No Offense taken. I just don't know where this "bunch of serious athletes" are? Certainly you can't mean the group of 15 min 5k guys on these boards? If that is the case, then your definition of "serious athlete" is incredibly low.
Congratulations.
You are poster # 968,564 who feels constrained to bash someone else's times. I hope with that big mouth of yours that you are well, well under 14:30 in the 5,000. If you are, double bad on you, because someone who is fast should know how hard it is to get there and would not lambast someone slower but training just as hard. Therefore, I can conclude you are a bitter moron hungry for attention or a 23:00 5K runner.
As for the "serious athletes," yes, a 15:00 5,000m runner is definitely a serious athlete. For the record, though, Jeremy Huffman, a 3:39 1500m runner, is a minimalist. Jaugar1, who is training for the 2008 Olympic marathon trials, is a minimalist.
Hicham El Guerrouj, the world record holder in the 1500m and the mile, does all his runs in racing flats as well.
But I imagine that to someone of your elevated stature, El Guerrouj is no big deal.
Let us now bow down and pay homage to the frightening wisdom of "Texas Jack" and the rest of the pathetic morons that fancy themselves "in the know."
Loser.
OOps. I stepped on the toes of a proud 5k guy, my bad. I think you are outstanding and should be praised to the high heavens for your outstanding accomplishments in our sport. Here is the 2005 womens list. How do you rank? Did I go deep enough for you?
For the record. The first person in this thread to put someone down for slow performances, was the original poster. My point was simply to point out that it is always a 5k guy that is not very good that wants to point fingers.
World Women
14:32.42 ( 1) Tirunesh Dibaba (ETH) 01 Oct 1985 11 Jun 2005 New York NY USA
14:32.57 ( 1) Tirunesh Dibaba- 2 01 Oct 1985 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
14:32.79 ( 2) Birhane Adere (ETH) 21 Jul 1973 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
14:32.90 ( 3) Meseret Defar (ETH) 19 Nov 1983 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
14:37.20 ( 4) Edith Masai (KEN) 04 Apr 1967 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
14:38.07 ( 5) Ejagayou Dibaba (ETH) 21 Mar 1982 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
14:38.97 ( 6) Meselech Melkamu (ETH) 1985 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
14:40.71 ( 7) Joanne Pavey (ENG) 20 Sep 1973 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
14:46.37 ( 2) Ejagayou Dibaba- 2 21 Mar 1982 11 Jun 2005 New York NY USA
14:47.06 ( 8) Alice Timbilil (KEN) 16 Jun 1983 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
10
14:50.96 ( 1) Isabella Ochichi (KEN) 28 Oct 1979 29 May 2005 Hengelo NED
14:51.11 ( 9) Sentayehu Ejigu (ETH) 21 Jun 1985 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
14:51.47 (10) Getenesh Wami (ETH) 26 May 1974 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
14:51.68 ( 2) Maryam Yusuf Jamal (BRN) 29 May 2005 Hengelo NED
14:53.21 (11) Susanne Wigene (NOR) 1978 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
14:53.22 (12) Kayoko Fukushi (JPN) 25 Mar 1982 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
14:54.98 (13) Marta Dominguez (ESP) 03 Nov 1975 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
14:57.32 ( 3) Alice Timbilil- 2 16 Jun 1983 29 May 2005 Hengelo NED
15:01.15 ( 1) Liliya Shobukhova (RUS) 13 Nov 1977 19 Jun 2005 Florence ITA
15:01.78 ( 1) Birhane Adere- 2 21 Jul 1973 09 Jun 2005 Ostrava CZE
20
15:02.34 (14) Gelete Burika (ETH) 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
15:02.52 (15) Lauren Fleshman (CA/USA) 16 Sep 1981 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
15:04.10 ( 2) Priscila Chepleting (KEN) 27 Jun 1980 09 Jun 2005 Ostrava CZE
15:04.22 (16) Workenesh Kidane (ETH) 28 Feb 1982 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
15:04.80 ( 3) Isabella Ochichi- 2 28 Oct 1979 09 Jun 2005 Ostrava CZE
15:05.58 ( 4) Susanne Wigene- 2 1978 09 Jun 2005 Ostrava CZE
15:06.12 ( 1) Lucy Wangui (KEN) 24 Mar 1984 07 May 2005 Osaka JPN
15:06.49 ( 4) Bizunesh Bekele (ETH) 29 May 2005 Hengelo NED
15:06.79 ( 1) Lucy Wangui- 2 24 Mar 1984 21 May 2005 Nobeoka JPN
15:07.89 ( 2) Jane Wanjiku (KEN) 14 Jun 1979 21 May 2005 Nobeoka JPN
30
15:08.28 ( 3) Mary Wangari (KEN) 09 Apr 1978 21 May 2005 Nobeoka JPN
15:08.38 ( 2) Wioletta Janowska (POL) 09 Jun 1977 19 Jun 2005 Florence ITA
15:08.57 ( 2) Jane Wanjiku- 2 14 Jun 1979 07 May 2005 Osaka JPN
15:08.59 ( 1) Elvan Abeylegesse (TUR) 11 Sep 1982 29 May 2005 Lagos POR
15:09.07 ( 3) Sentayehu Ejigu- 2 21 Jun 1985 11 Jun 2005 New York NY USA
15:09.39 ( 1) Sabrina Mockenhaupt (GER) 06 Dec 1980 02 Jul 2005 Bochum-Wattenscheid GER
15:09.49 ( 3) Fyles Ongori (KEN) 19 Jul 1986 07 May 2005 Osaka JPN
15:10.13 ( 5) Derebe Alemu (ETH) 1983 29 May 2005 Hengelo NED
15:10.14 ( 1) Volha Kravtsova (BLR) 25 Jun 1981 19 Jun 2005 Leiria POR
15:10.26 ( 6) Lornah Kiplagat (NED) 01 May 1974 29 May 2005 Hengelo NED
40
15:10.3 ( 1) Isabella Ochichi- 3 28 Oct 1979 Jun 2005 Nairobi KEN
15:10.58 ( 1) Fyles Ongori- 2 19 Jul 1986 04 Jun 2005 Tokyo JPN
15:10.96 ( 1) Shalane Flanagan (MA/USA) 08 Jul 1981 23 Jun 2005 Carson CA USA
15:12.54 (17) Margaret Maury (FRA) 15 May 1974 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
15:13.1 ( 2) Veronica Wanjiru (KEN) Jun 2005 Nairobi KEN
15:13.36 ( 3) Maria Mihaela Botezan (ROM) 21 Nov 1976 19 Jun 2005 Florence ITA
15:14.15 ( 4) Evelyn Kimuria (KEN) 1980 21 May 2005 Nobeoka JPN
15:14.5 ( 3) Priscila Chepleting- 2 27 Jun 1980 Jun 2005 Nairobi KEN
15:14.52 (18) Kimberly Smith (CT/NZL) 19 Nov 1981 08 Jul 2005 Rome ITA
15:15.14 ( 1) Elvan Abeylegesse- 2 11 Sep 1982 19 Jun 2005 Istanbul TUR
50
Ok, whatever
The guy said "serious athletes". Some people on this board need to get over themselves. Clearly what he meant was its an interesting topic that many runners who train more than 15 MPW are interested in. He wasnt bashing slower athletes, he was just wondering why the guy never writes an article adressing this interesting topic. You need to settle down.
But to the original topic, He did write an article a few months back if I remember right. Basically some guy came in who had just started running and had bad biomechanics, and he put him in a stabiity shoe and all was right in the world. Also, El G doenst do all his runs in flats. He does his track sessions in spikes and distance runs in pegasus, there was a series on him in T and F news that showed that in pics a while back.
First of all I am nota world star or even national runner but I ahve run 14 minutes for 5k and 29 for 10k, and you are wrong aout a few things in your post. El G trains in regular thick trainers, Pegasus to be precise, just like Paul Tergat. Virtually every elite I know does the same.... as has been said before minimals are ok for some but the idea that they are 'correct' in terms of how the body works is not true. Children in the west grow up wearing shoes, from about 18 months old, their body develops wearing shoes, their spine, hips, legs, neck all compensate for wearing shoes. You can't correct that at age 25 and unless you are having serious problems you don't need to.
Wear a neutral regular cushioned shoe and I think the problems you will have will be minimal.
Minimals, Frees, big chunky shoes, none of tehm are going to amke you faster, only thing which does that is hard work and time.
To stick to the original topic, JD's columns are all a variation on, "Why you should buy your shoes from me." Why would he write something that could lead some people to think he's unnecessary?
If anyone has a way to discipline yourself not to read and respond to these minimalist shoe threads, please post it. I'd love to stop. But...
You can't measure how serious a runner is by times. I was in the mid 15s for 5km at my best and was very serious. I was also slower than many people who were less serious. If you're really serious and pretty successful these days, you usually get a shoe deal and what you wear, and usually what you're photographed in, is what your shoe company gives you. So photos of El G in this or that shoe may or may not show what he runs in.
But it doesn't matter. The point of training in a shoe is not to imitate what your hero wears or wore. It's to find something that allows you to run with as few problems and as much comfort as possible and to get in as much training as you can. The top Japanese do that in racers for the most part. The top Americans do that in conventional trainers for the most part. If you're having problems, try something else. The best advice is to wear the least shoe YOU can. But that may be more or less shoe than someone else can handle.
JD Denton writes for a magazine that gets a huge chunk of its income from shoe adverts. He owns a running shop. He gets a big chunk of his income from selling what's advertized in RT. He's a "company" guy. He probably believes the company line. He writes the company line. If he didn't, he'd be gone and there'd be another "Shoe Guy."
So what? If you like less shoe than he recommends, as I do, ignore him. If you want opinions about minimalist shoes, there are plenty of us here who use them and will respond to inquiries, unless someone posts that technique for avoiding shoe threads,
Thats fine, but don't go on about 'minimalism' being the 'best't thing for teh body, the most 'natural' way to run, its not, unless you wree brought up barefoot through childhood and early adulthood.
I am not talking about what elites wear in photo shoots, i'm talking about what they wear when they meet up fora Sunday run or a weekday training spin....
Mottram -pegasus
O'Sullivan -althea
Benita Johnson -althea
El G -Pegasus
Kennedy -Structure
Mayock -Spans
I have never seen any of the Kenyans who are based in europe and train in London during the summer in anything other than thick protective training shoes.
On the other hand I ahve been to japana nd witnessed everybody wearing flats, but take a look at the way they run indeed at the way they are 'taught to run' on their heels, minimal knee lift, no pose technique there... heel strikers, shufflers....
What more could he say. If I remember in the article where he addressed the minimalis movement, he stated that it was fine for those that are very effeciant runners, but others my need something more. Isn't it just THAT simple?
wow wrote:
He wasnt bashing slower athletes, he was just wondering why the guy never writes an article adressing this interesting topic.
His first sentence includes.
" ... but the guys columns are usually about some 25:00 5k runner...."
That comes off as someone that clearly thinks that a 25:00 5k runner is not worthy. If that is the case then you better be prepared to defend your own performance as being worthy. It is incredibly arrogant to think that 15 min and 25 min 5k runners don't have anything in common.
newbalance wrote:
El G trains in regular thick trainers, Pegasus to be precise, just like Paul Tergat.
"Interestingly, as it is generally believed that heavy well-cushioned running shoes are needed to avoid injury, they believe that light 'racing flats' should be worn on training runs, usually around 30 minutes for El Guerrouj, as the chunky trainer allows the foot to become less functional. On this note, they also believe in walking on sand to develop the muscles surrounding the foot and ankle. "
Please don't speak out of your rectum. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Nike Sucks wrote:
His first sentence includes.
" ... but the guys columns are usually about some 25:00 5k runner...."
That comes off as someone that clearly thinks that a 25:00 5k runner is not worthy. If that is the case then you better be prepared to defend your own performance as being worthy. It is incredibly arrogant to think that 15 min and 25 min 5k runners don't have anything in common.
That could just as easily mean that the large majority of competitive, serious runners are a good deal faster than 25:00. With all due respect, I do not know any serious runner with competitive aspirations and a healthy, normal body who runs that slowly in 5K races. Do you? There may be some weekend warrior who goes 30 miles per week and considers himself serious, but I am talking about a guy who does tempos, hills, long runs, 50-60+ miles per week, and wants to be good. How many of those types are running 25:00? And it's true; I've noticed when reading this guy's column that it seems to be some overweight beginning runner who did a 4 mile "long run" and screwed up their knee or something and now they need a fix.
Texas Jack wrote:
OOps. I stepped on the toes of a proud 5k guy, my bad. I think you are outstanding and should be praised to the high heavens for your outstanding accomplishments in our sport. Here is the 2005 womens list. How do you rank? Did I go deep enough for you?
I get the feeling that this Texas Jack dude is some young self-righteous guy who is sitting in his room trying to one-up anyone who replies to him with cleverly crafted insults. That barb about the woman's 5 list is a perfect example. Take your medicine, bud.
you are full of crap wrote:
With all due respect, I do not know any serious runner with competitive aspirations and a healthy, normal body who runs that slowly in 5K races. Do you? There may be some weekend warrior who goes 30 miles per week and considers himself serious, but I am talking about a guy who does tempos, hills, long runs, 50-60+ miles per week, and wants to be good. How many of those types are running 25:00?
YOU HAVE PROVED THE POINT.
I do not know any serious male runners that are 25 min or 15 min 5k runners (unless they are under the age of 16). The argument is over your definition of SERIOUS. I don't know of any SERIOUS runners that do hills, tempos, long runs (20 plus). That run as little as 60 miles per week. A 14:50 5k guy is not good enough to travel on any decent collegiate team (so hopefully he doesn't have aspirations of being competitive). If this athlete is serious about being competitive the first thing he should do is double his 60 miles a week and stop worrying so damn much about shoes.