Remind me what's the point of speed reps?

It's easy because that's an easy workout. Either run them faster, or run 400s instead of 200s, or do a lot more of them.

2 minutes is a lot of rest for 200s. That's like taking 11 minutes rest between 1K repeats. Try doing the same workout with rest = recovery.

Leg turnover and form practice

Daniels reps are glorified strides.

They are not a workout but an add on.

Focus on the other workouts wrote:

Leg turnover and form practice

Daniels reps are glorified strides.

They are not a workout but an add on.

I think this nails it, thanks. Most of Daniels makes sense but his R sessions never gelled with me - now I know why, they're basically drills.

Isnt daniels saying 200m repeat and then 200m jog? that would be more like 75 sec rest. Just last week I did 16*200. I like the repeat workouts exactly because they are fast but not hard.

semenyagoat wrote:

Isnt daniels saying 200m repeat and then 200m jog? that would be more like 75 sec rest. Just last week I did 16*200. I like the repeat workouts exactly because they are fast but not hard.

forgot to mention i regularly do them uphill as strength training.

If you are doing this correct you run about 21:30 at 5 k and about 6:17 at the mile in a race. The R-pace is the pace you are supposed to be able to hold in a 1500/ mile race the entire distance, and the main effect with it is to teach the body to relax at 1500/mile pace, therefore it needs longer rests. If it feels ridiculously easy for you I can guarantee that you don`t use your correct VDOT level.It might be so you have a better VDOT level when you have your recently best 1500m/mile result as a reference result if you are not so aerobic strong.

It will make your more moderate paces easier, and improve your mechanics, among other things.

Juice Springsteen wrote:

It will make your more moderate paces easier

It certainly does that, at least in the immediate term. My cooldown 2-3K afterwards feels like an easy cruise but usually turns out to be threshold pace. Same for easy pace the following day.

Juice Springsteen wrote:

and improve your mechanics, among other things.

True, hence thinking of them now more as drills than workouts.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

If you are doing this correct you run about 21:30 at 5 k and about 6:17 at the mile in a race. The R-pace is the pace you are supposed to be able to hold in a 1500/ mile race the entire distance, and the main effect with it is to teach the body to relax at 1500/mile pace, therefore it needs longer rests. If it feels ridiculously easy for you I can guarantee that you don`t use your correct VDOT level.It might be so you have a better VDOT level when you have your recently best 1500m/mile result as a reference result if you are not so aerobic strong.

That's right, I'm just over 21 and 6 so am doing reps at around mile pace as JD says. I doubt I could run faster than that - I'm gasping for life after a 6 min mile but my legs are ok. Sprinting comes much easier to me.

Any recommendations for someone who tails off badly from 400m upwards? These are my solo time trials over the last couple of years - all over 90% effort, but I've only trialled each distance once.

100 - 13-14

200 - 30

400 - 70

Mile - 6

5K - 21

niet wrote:

That's right, I'm just over 21 and 6 so am doing reps at around mile pace as JD says. I doubt I could run faster than that - I'm gasping for life after a 6 min mile but my legs are ok. Sprinting comes much easier to me.

Any recommendations for someone who tails off badly from 400m upwards? These are my solo time trials over the last couple of years - all over 90% effort, but I've only trialled each distance once.

100 - 13-14

200 - 30

400 - 70

Mile - 6

5K - 21

It's clear that you just need more miles. I would keep 10x200 rep "workout" as recovery/very easy day.

niet wrote:

That's right, I'm just over 21 and 6 so am doing reps at around mile pace as JD says. I doubt I could run faster than that - I'm gasping for life after a 6 min mile but my legs are ok. Sprinting comes much easier to me.

Any recommendations for someone who tails off badly from 400m upwards? These are my solo time trials over the last couple of years - all over 90% effort, but I've only trialled each distance once.

100 - 13-14

200 - 30

400 - 70

Mile - 6

5K - 21

12x200 should be easy at your mile pace, especially with 2:00 rest. Come on!

If you want a real mile-pace workout and not just strides (which have plenty of value, by the way), do 10-12 mile-pace 400s with 2:00 rest, then get that rest down to 1:30 or even 1:00 rest.

If you insist on 200m reps (what are you even training for, by the way??), 12x200 at 800 pace with 1:00 rest will get you rethinking how "easy" reps at speed are. A guy your speed could start at 40s per 200 and try to cut down from there.

Finally, if you are not understanding something, don't immediately assume that the concept is wrong. Allow the possibility that you don't know what you're doing, which you clearly don't here. Your post here is so typical millennial/gen Z. Barf.

niet wrote:

That's right, I'm just over 21 and 6 so am doing reps at around mile pace as JD says. I doubt I could run faster than that - I'm gasping for life after a 6 min mile but my legs are ok. Sprinting comes much easier to me.

Any recommendations for someone who tails off badly from 400m upwards? These are my solo time trials over the last couple of years - all over 90% effort, but I've only trialled each distance once.

100 - 13-14

200 - 30

400 - 70

Mile - 6

5K - 21

Food for thought, I'm a 15:xx 5K runner and my 100/200 PRs are basically the same as yours, but I can run ~12 reps at your 400 pace. I don't think you really need any more work on your speed other than a maintenance workout every 2-3 weeks. You need to work on your aerobic capacity a lot. More miles for the most part since it sounds like you are already incorporating a weekly tempo.

In contrast to a lot of posters here Daniels R pace is a pretty significant workout for me. I can do a lot of 200s, but I'd cap out somewhere around 8 400m reps at 68 seconds (my R pace), maybe less if I'm strict with the resting periods.

Daniels R-pace is supposed to be done with an equal distance recovery jog/walk, and he means FULL recovery not a brisk shuffle at 7 min/mile pace (for your level, more like 8-9 min/mile pace). If you take the recovery seriously, doing the 400s should be easy even if you are more ST runner.

Sure, if you cut rest down to 90 sec, or even 60 sec and lower, the 400s at mile pace become MUCH harder. Then it's a super hard session, comparable to a race with extreme lactate values. But that's not the purpose of Daniels R-pace!

Is there a reason for such a confrontational tone? You wouldn't talk like that if we were speaking face to face so don't do it here.

You seem to think I'm making up random reps without knowing what I'm doing. What I'm doing is a Daniels R pace session just as he specifies: 200s at mile pace with 2-3 x time rest. I asked what these are meant to accomplish as a way to start a discussion. Actually I've got his book so I know what he says about them; however it's one area of his methodology that I'm sceptical about, hence wanting to get others' views. And they've answered my question - these sessions are more like drills than workouts, or strides as you say. Ideally Daniels would make that clearer.

For the purpose of these drills - form, economy and to an extent speed - mile pace with long rests is appropriate. I'm not sure what the workouts you suggest would do - too fast (800 pace) and short for VO2max intervals, but too little recovery for pure speed/form. That's a Daniels view anyway, not that he's necessarily right about everything. Your "real" mile pace workout of 10-12x400 at mile pace, 2min rest is a Daniels R session (3ed p.64), which incidentally I did once last year and found fairly easy for the most part as well.

Finally, I'm neither millenial nor gen Z. I'm in my 50s.

Andy Dufresne wrote:

You need to work on your aerobic capacity a lot. More miles for the most part since it sounds like you are already incorporating a weekly tempo.

Do you mean aerobic capacity/conditioning as in easy mileage, or aerobic capacity/power as in VO2max work? It sounds like you mean easy miles, but the term 'aerobic capacity' seems most often associated with VO2max.

Daniels stated purpose for this kind of workout is to improve running economy by improving form. His idea is that when you run at a fast pace, your body tends to naturally streamline some of your running form, getting you up on your toes,

Getting you leaning forward,

Getting your driving your arms forward, getting good knee lift, etc.

So from hat perspective, doing these on shorter rest can actually be counterproductive as you start to struggle as the workout progresses and you look like someone rigging at the end of an 800 - reinforcing bad form instead of good form.

Daniels would also agree with the poster who said that the work at this pace also supports other paces as it makes them feel relatively slow.

That’s why you see Daniels emphasize this kind of work early in his training cycles - it allows for those running economy benefits to accrue during the longer workouts to follow and it makes the subsequent paces feel easier.

Them not being particularly stressful shouldn’t be overly surprising in that context, although if you stretch the reps out to 400m, you’ll see they become appreciably tougher.

All of this goes to 5k plans and above. The analysis would be different for middle distance runners.

I would note that there are those who would argue that being able to hold form while tired should be the real goal and this should could rest down. For this reason, and because most people would get bored with an 8 x 400 workout with 3-4 minute rests, I typically split the baby and do something like, 2 sets of 4 x 400 with 400 slow jog between reps and full recovery between sets.

Hello ! I will give you my best advice for free, lol .

You have really good sprint speed relatively your mile and 5 k results. Here you get a good weekly schedule to follow:

A schedule that is basically the same as for my 13:29 5 k and 27:43 10 k guys:

Mo: 5-8 miles at 9 min mile pace

Tu : 10- 20 x 400m at 96 sec , recovery= wait easy walking until back to heartrate 120 bpm

We: restday or 5-8 miles 9 min mile pace

Th: 5-8 miles 9 min mile pace

Fr: LT -intervals to a total of 4-6 miles at 7 min mile pace ( eg. 8-12 x 800m ) , recovery = wait easy walking back to 120 bpm + 3-4 X 100m strides ( 80 % of max sprint speed)

Sa: 10 -12 miles at 9 min mile pace

Su: RESTDAY

Try this and you will soon see improvement at mile and 5 k and even 10 k . Good luck! :)

-The Wizard - ))

200 repeats has got to be one of flashiest but least useful workouts for a distance runner.

If you weren't stressed, it might because because the aerobic component is small (~20% ATP aerobic) nor is it long enough to experience lactic discomfort.