Could I get into an Ivy League school

It’s not free wrote:

I went to Penn. I graduated 30+ years ago.

All the rest of what you had to say is not relevant to someone exploring Ivies now. Times have changed, markedly.

The situation NOW is that for the typical middle- or lower-income family, attending an Ivy will be free or nearly free.

Even 40+ years ago, when I attended, I got a 3/4 ride (need-based, like all Ivy scholarships), because I was from a working-class family. A person in a similar situation nowadays would attend free, no question.

Former Ivy coach wrote:

It’s not free wrote:

I went to Penn. I graduated 30+ years ago.

All the rest of what you had to say is not relevant to someone exploring Ivies now. Times have changed, markedly.

The situation NOW is that for the typical middle- or lower-income family, attending an Ivy will be free or nearly free.

Even 40+ years ago, when I attended, I got a 3/4 ride (need-based, like all Ivy scholarships), because I was from a working-class family. A person in a similar situation nowadays would attend free, no question.

This is correct. So far in this thread, what has been said about cost of an Ivy League education regarding income has not been correct.

This is the guideline (and it applies to Stanford also):

Unless you have tons of money liquid...

If your family income is $125,000, you can expect full tuition.

If you family income is $70,000, you can expect a full ride...tuition AND room and board.

That is hiding wealth, not income, which is what the point was. If a husband and wife each have decent jobs, you are screwed at the ivies.

By liquid, you mean everything other than your main house and 401k. Everything else is considered liquid. A second house, or farm, or land, or bank account, or mutual funds are all considered the same. Two average working parents who both have been earning $100k over the past 22 years and now get ready to send junior off to Harvard can expect to pay $70k per year if they were frugal. Putting a decent amount in mutual funds and a vacation home over 22 years should have them with a liquid amount of $1M-$2M. Even people who only put away a small amount above their 401ks, should have $500k to show. Plug that into most of the NPCs on top of the $200k in income, and they have to pay more than $200k for an Ivy education. The same kid at their local state school with a small athletic scholarship and nice academic discounts for that 4.0 and 34 ACT will pay almost nothing.

Former Ivy coach wrote:

It’s not free wrote:

I went to Penn. I graduated 30+ years ago.

All the rest of what you had to say is not relevant to someone exploring Ivies now. Times have changed, markedly.

The situation NOW is that for the typical middle- or lower-income family, attending an Ivy will be free or nearly free.

Even 40+ years ago, when I attended, I got a 3/4 ride (need-based, like all Ivy scholarships), because I was from a working-class family. A person in a similar situation nowadays would attend free, no question.

Today:

Low income = free or nearly free

Middle income = lots of student debt

High income = no debt. Parents pay everything.

The middle income kids are screwed basically

Don't bother with Harvard, Princeton, Yale, or Columbia.

Try one of the safety schools, like Dartmouth, Penn, Brown, or Cornell. They'll probably take you.

TrackGuy17 wrote:

If I ran a 4:16 1600m and a 1:55 800m with a 9:30 3200m, and had a 94 Gpa and a 1400 Sat, would an Ivy league school like Dartmouth want me? I don't know where I stand in the recruiting process

umm you can do yale or harvard if your parents are super rich, sh*t you can be dumb as a brick with terrible grammar and journalism skills. then your track times will come down at 28 when you hop on the sauce and move to flagstaff, and on your off time you can start a forum and preach against doping while being a huge hypocrite. i expect great things!

- the poster formally known as m!ndweak

Ivy Leagues and other elite institutions have incredible financial aid packages nowadays. They don't offer scholarships but they have a ton of money dedicated to financial aid so practically everyone that is accepted can afford it. Princeton gives free tuition up to a family income of 160k, and then slowly increases the price from there on. This wasn't the case a while back, and so people who didn't have a lot of money did take on more debt from these schools. Now, if you're able to get into good schools, second-tier schools will do you the most financial damage, as the lower-tier schools will give great scholarships, the first-tier schools will give great financial aid, and the second tier won't give you much of either. You only won't get financial aid if you're really rich and at that point you don't really need to worry about debt anyways.

Source: Ivy League student

The average grant for the Class of 2022 was $53,100, which covers 100 percent of Princeton tuition.

They are playing with the numbers. The average student who applied for aid received $53k. The average family income of kids applying for aid had family incomes of $160k. I plugged a family income of $160k into the calculator and plugged in investments and savings of only $500k which should be less than a family of that income level will have after 20+ years. The calculator resulted in aid of only $14k and family contribution of $60k. I encourage the rest of you to use the Princeton calculator to verify.

zxczxcv wrote:

Since 4.0 does not represent 100% in classes, but rather a straight A average, where middle range A is 95, this would represent either 4.07 (4.33x.94: A+ avg--even that could be attained through 97 or 98 average) or 3.96 (94/95x4.0), not 3.76 (.94x4.0). Comparing GPAs across schools without taking account of relative difficulty is not useful for making fine distinctions anyway.

I'm thinking that a good result in xc and a good indoor track time next year should help get this candidate in. 1400 SAT as a junior might well mean 1450 or more as a senior. That with 4:16/9:20 would have a good shot.

You're most likely correct. I used the lowest ballpark estimate, considering no specific GPA was given, and we do not know what the grading situation is at his school.

TrackGuy17 wrote:

If I ran a 4:16 1600m and a 1:55 800m with a 9:30 3200m, and had a 94 Gpa and a 1400 Sat, would an Ivy league school like Dartmouth want me? I don't know where I stand in the recruiting process

Why do you want to go to an Ivy league school? That's important to understand.

I thought i wanted to go to one when I was in high school, visited several (Cornell, Brown, Columbia) and decided it didn't feel good compared to others I visited. I have no debt and never had a problem finding a job. I graduated top in my program and it was a really fun experience.

And I ran D-1 XC and track for a few years and learned it wasn't for me either, despte thinking it was the priority before heading to college

I had an idea that only an Ivy education would work for me, but it didn't align with what matters in life, or at least to mine at the time. I'm really glad i didn't do it.

I went to do an official visit at Cornell and half the team was doing homework at an indoor track meet. So stressed out. Not fun to be around.

When you're in college you'll realize grades and gpa and all of that doesn't matter. It's how well you can do something. I was a grade-obsessed over-achieving 4.0 in H.S. but could have had a lot more fun and still learned the same sh*t

Brown University:

Gross tuition and fees of $514.5 million increased $32 million, or 6.6 percent over the prior year, reflecting a 4.1 percent increase in undergraduate student charges and a modest increase in undergraduate enrollment.

$187 million for University scholarships (36% of the $514.5 million gross tuition and fees)

43 percent of undergraduates, including more than 180 international students received financial aid. Which means that 57 percent of undergrads received no aid

Thank you for those statistics. People don't want to be exposed to facts though. They would rather be wowed by the kid down the street who went to Harvard for free because then everyone in town believes that he is so smart that Harvard gave him a bunch of academic scholarships. Or people want to believe that crazy statement that those schools cover 100% of a student's demonstrated financial need. I thought that meant my son would pay nothing after I told them that we couldn't afford it. No. It meant that because my wife and I had saved instead of going on vacations or having nice cars or eating out or.....Princeton told us that we had to pay full fare. Yale was willing to cut $4k per year. But now we know from Brown's own website that 57% of students are going to pay $300k for their children's educations.

Well said.

I believe Dartmouth XC wants 4:20 or faster for the mile and 9:20 or faster for 3200m by end of Junior year of high school. So you're close (and maybe more recruitable as a mid-distance rather than a long distance runner, as 1:55 is pretty darn fast, dude!).

Recent Dartmouth long-distance runner I know ran 4:16 (1600m) and 9:18 (3200m) in high school I think, scored 32 ACT and applied EARLY. Plus you'll need great grades, high APs (4s and 5s), leadership, community involvement, stellar catchy essays, impressive achievement tests, and summers well spent -- you know, the usual.

(General note on essays: don't rewrite your resume in prose. Also, avoid the "I faced a hurdle but managed to overcome it!" essay, the "community-service-volunteer experience that changed my perspective and my life!" essay, and the dying-parent essay. Sounds harsh I know, but admissions officers have told me they get so many of these types they literally pile them into stacks. Rather, albeit stylishly, reveal something honest, personal, even small yet with some genuine emotion about yourself. )

(General note on academic areas of interest: the most common prospective majors are Economics, Gov'y, Engineering, Bio-Chemistry and English.... because top colleges send so many of their grads off to business school, med school, law school and careers in engineering. To make yourself stand out a bit, if asked, consider relating a less crowded field of study as your intended major. Those smaller departments [Portuguese, Anthropology, Creative Writing, Religion, Medieval German poetry, etc.] need majors too, and the dean of admissions knows he or she should check those boxes during the process in order to keep those department heads happy/off his or her back. That said, you do need to show some prior interest to prove authenticity ....)

Some schools prefer the applicant with startlingly distinct skills: eg the refugee from a family of Algerian high-wire jugglers who translated Kipling's JUST SO stories into Arabic last summer.... That's awesome, but it seems Dartmouth welcomes generally well-rounded students with equal, if not greater, fervor/frequency.

Early decision at Dartmouth is actually statistically easier than regular admission, because school spirit -- which includes a student body that really really wants to be up in Hanover -- is particularly important to Dartmouth and thus to its admissions department. (That's not the case for all places; applying early to UPenn is statistically harder than regular admission and thus can actually hurt you, as I recall).

Also, definitely reach out to the coaching staff. Let them hear your passion for running and for Dartmouth. Keep them apprised of noteworthy races, times and PRs this fall with friendly emails. Get your coach(es) to call and talk you up. The value of building a personal connection deserves underlining here.

Btw, never refer to Dartmouth as a university. Though it does have a top-10 b-school plus world-renowned engineering and medical grad schools, it takes great pride in the quality of its UNDERGRADUATE education -- ranked as one of if not the best in the country -- because students are taught by the professors, not TAs in a masters or PhD program. "Dartmouth College", never "Dartmouth University".

Good luck! And remember that for all our "good" advise and for all your best efforts, it is really a crap-shoot. The average admissions officer at an average high-end college spends an average of just 8-12 minutes (!!!) on any single application (a lot less time than I've spent writing this reply!). The Ivys, Stanford, BC, Georgetown, Duke, Williams, Berkeley et al. -- they all have far more qualified applicants than they can possibly accept ... so they end up rejecting tons of perfectly great candidates, unfortunately. So if you don't get in to The Big Green early, make sure you apply to PLENTY of other schools... and keep your fingers crossed!

It us very difficult to get in as a white male. If you run 4:10 or 9 minutes, yes you are in. If not, the coach will welcome you onto the team but wont use one of his freebies. If you are black or Hispanic, they will absolutely get you admitted. Thus is no secret. They are proud to have fewer than 50% whites in attendance.

"It us very difficult to get in as a white male. If you run 4:10 or 9 minutes, yes you are in. If not, the coach will welcome you onto the team but wont use one of his freebies. If you are black or Hispanic, they will absolutely get you admitted. Thus is no secret. They are proud to have fewer than 50% whites in attendance."

A number of lines in your statement are factually incorrect.

A) Whites constitute 65% of Dartmouth undergrads, not fewer than 50%.

B) Since you're wrong about that statistic, your claim that somehow the College is "proud" about it makes no sense.

C) Nothing "will absolutely get you admitted." That's simply not how it works ... and THIS is no secret to anyone who's been through the process recently.

Dartmouth Admissions by the numbers (class of 2022):

(Source: Dartmouth College)

(numbers do not total 100% because of some students' declarations in more than 1 category)

African American: 9%

Asian American: 21%

White/Caucasian: 65%

Latino: 12%

Native American: 4%

Multi-Racial: 7%

No Response: 1%

Dartmouth, like every quality institution of higher learning that I know of, makes a great effort to recruit, admit, and support a diverse undergraduate population which at least generally reflects the make-up of the United States. THAT they are indeed proud of, I'm quite sure.

(first generation: 13%)

(foreign students: 10%)

Wow- too bad nobody will actually benefit from this admittedly helpful information re. Dartmouth admissions.

Slow as Molasses wrote:

To make yourself stand out a bit, if asked, consider relating a less crowded field of study as your intended major. Those smaller departments [Portuguese, Anthropology, Creative Writing, Religion, Medieval German poetry, etc.] need majors too, and the dean of admissions knows he or she should check those boxes during the process in order to keep those department heads happy/off his or her back. That said, you do need to show some prior interest to prove authenticity ....)

Lol. Go ahead and spend $300+k of your or other people’s money on these fields of study.

This made my day