Brojos calling Melissa Bishop the "Top XX Runner in the World in 2016" is true, but childish

Bad Wigins wrote:

anyone else who thought this was about nudie pics, don't bother

Not that I was fully expecting anything salacious in terms of pics, I must admit that my first thought was; did she go the way of SFH?

I can see the need to recalibrate my interpretation of Xs.

Do the brojos even know if Bishop is XX or are they just assuming because she is more feminine?

Completely true. The people who are complaining about this seem to be the same ones that continually deflect the science about Semenya into any number of difference arguments. I don't need to go into them here, follow this site daily and we'll see them circle around and around again and again.

The fact is that the XY, and the additional testosterone associate with it, confers unfair advantage in the context of the two classes that we've made in sports: men and women. To continue to let high testosterone XY athletes compete is "womens" sport makes no sense. It essentially nullifies the categories. You either instigate this rule, or do away with the categories period.

I feel sorry for those who have lost to drug cheats at both the high and low level of this sport, and I feel sorry for XX women who have been competing in a category that they now understand that they never, ever even had a chance to win. And if there is anything that we should be looking at sport as, it is something that we can make a fair and level playing field where the athletes participating have an equal chance to win.

The article headline seems to hit the nail on the head a little too much for those who would like to make Semenya's ban about something else. Its not. Bishop and Wilson missed a chance to join Madeline manning Mims in becoming Olympic 800 legends with what would have been a great race for gold. I feel sorry for them.

They should ALWAYS bring up how unfair it is that semenya and others like her get to compete against XX women with normal hormone levels.

It’s not childish at all. It’s right to constantly point out how unfair the women’s mid distance situation is right now.

And don’t get me started on trans athletes.

Frankly, the basic rule should be: when in doubt, compete in the men’s division.

Who?

Thvcjihfhjfknf wrote:

Do the brojos even know if Bishop is XX or are they just assuming because she is more feminine?

Well she is white...so that's probably good enough for the Brojos

vegeta wrote:

bkrunner wrote:

This says more about the brojos than it does about Bishop, Semenya, or IAAF. None of the actual journalists who wrote the articles about Bishop felt the need to add that little tidbit. The brojos are like middle schoolers who find out that their classmate was born out of wedlock, so they start calling him "illegitimate Charlie." Sure, it's true, but they're only doing it because they're self-righteous and want to p!ss people off.

Brojos -- You can make your views known without being jerks. That's what real journalists do.

They may have a point in reference to the Olympic final in 2016. But Ajee Wilson is a far superior 800m runner than bishop. If they race 10 times bishop may beat her twice. Ajee Wilson is the best female 800 runner in the world.

....And also chooses the best beef.

I wrote and I'm not apologizing for it at all. The point of the XX comment was to be the opposite of childish. It was to spare the talk about Caster Semenya being XY.

I wanted to remind people - most of our audience is not Canadian - who Melissa Bishop is. Instead of saying, Bishop who might have won two gold medals if the intersex or XY Caster Semenya was barred from competing, I was able to write it to remind people about how much Bishop has lost because of all this, but at the same time spare Semenya's name being mentioned at all.

How would you like me to write it ? Please tell me how can I mention how much Bishop lost out without talking about Semenya being XY. This is the only way to do it.

The world is so PC I get criticized for for promoting a woman who just had a baby and is on the comeback trail. Unreal.

All we hear about is Semenya, Wambui etc. We don't hear about Bishop, Wilson, etc.

This site is deliberately fuelling hate towards Caster Semenya and it needs calling out. But what else would we expect from people who complain bitterly if even one second of wheelchair athlete coverage comes on their screen? It's frightening to think of the kind of society you want to build.

No, please stop wrote:

Frankly, the basic rule should be: when in doubt, compete in the men’s division.

Whose doubts?

I’m with the OP—I think it is near certain that some DSDs confer an advantage in the female division in athletics. But in order to make a rule that reflects this and excludes some, who identify as women and have historically competed in the female division, there must be good process which is backed by science. Without that, we open up the door to arbitrary-ass rules that end up reflecting the biases of those who make them (in this case, people from backgrounds of privilege who have been raised on European/American standards of what being a woman or female means—like Lord Coe, me, and Rojo.)

That isn’t to say that in this case the science that I and many of us believe isn’t right; but let’s prove it first and then make rules to reflect it. Either that or let’s just admit that the rules just reflect the arbitrary whims of the sport’s administrators.

And throughout this, please remember that these rules, and the discussion around them and how it’s conducted, affect actual human beings, if not out of basic human decency then because a little bit of sensitivity goes a long way toward making a difficult position more palatable to those who don’t already hold it.

1. Testosterone over a certain threshold.

2. not XX

Thvcjihfhjfknf wrote:

Do the brojos even know if Bishop is XX or are they just assuming because she is more feminine?

The pregnancy thing is a bit of a giveaway.

Semenya should not compete with XX women. Same with the other XY . Seb is trying to save women's middle distance running .

Trolls everywhere. The quote is perfectly fine. And true.

The actual quote is even worse .... "the top XX 800 runner in the world at the 2015 Worlds and 2016 Olympics,".

Rojo, you prolly don't need to say "in the world" when you're taking about the World Championships.

Why not simply write that she came 4th in the Olympic final? That's a huge accomplishment and one for anyone to be proud of. You diminish that.

And you don't need to mention Caster or anything about the controversy and recent decision. Anyone reading your site knows the saga there.

As a simple standard, there was no XX category in which she competed, any more than there was a "white" category.

I agree with the OP, it's simply a childish remark, and one that reflects your own sentiments towards Caster more than anything else. You're flat out lying to pretend otherwise.

These doubts wrote:

1. Testosterone over a certain threshold.

2. not XX

What is the science behind why that threshold should be where it is (or in another place, if that’s where it should be) and apply to the events it applies to?

Who determines whether someone is suspected to be non-XX and requires chromosome testing?

Not An Expert wrote:

These doubts wrote:

1. Testosterone over a certain threshold.

2. not XX

What is the science behind why that threshold should be where it is (or in another place, if that’s where it should be) and apply to the events it applies to?

Who determines whether someone is suspected to be non-XX and requires chromosome testing?

No offense but have you been living under a rock? The rules have been adequately explained in recent news if you do a minimal amount of research.

bkrunner wrote:

This says more about the brojos than it does about Bishop, Semenya, or IAAF. None of the actual journalists who wrote the articles about Bishop felt the need to add that little tidbit. The brojos are like middle schoolers who find out that their classmate was born out of wedlock, so they start calling him "illegitimate Charlie." Sure, it's true, but they're only doing it because they're self-righteous and want to p!ss people off.

Brojos -- You can make your views known without being jerks. That's what real journalists do.

_______________________________________

Without disclosing too much information (personal and professional risks), I'll mention that I am an academic (interested in gender studies & feminism) and a competitive sub-elite runner. I completely endorse the description of Melissa Bishop as XX for several reasons.

1. Mainstream reporting on the Caster Semenya case has systematically excluded information about her biological sex characteristics while disingenuously implying that she is simply an otherwise typical female with "naturally high levels of testosterone." Therefore, much of the reading public has no idea that Semenya has an intersex condition and that she differs from the vast majority of women (who are, unquestionably, female) in sports. Doriana Lambelet Coleman, a legal scholar at Duke and former professional 800m runner, noted that many women currently running the 800m at the elite level were similarly confused about Semenya and were surprised (after Coleman told them) to learn that she has an intersex condition. Bodies matter in women's sports.

2. Recent stories about reduced sponsorship during pregnancy shed light on the fact that biological females continue to face specific barriers in professional track & field due to normal biological processes. This underscores the need to deveop sports policies specifically tailored to the XX female body.

3. Growing acceptance of gender (as opposed to sex) as the appropriate locus for protective legislation presents a significant threat to female sports participation. There is sound scientific reason to believe that XX women will be pushed out of elite sports if we refuse to acknowledge biological sex differences. The terms "gender" and "sex" have become so fluid and politicized that they fail to clearly convey important scientific information about human bodies.

I have been horrified by mainstream reporting about Semenya, and to a lesser extent, arguments about trans-women's participation in sports. I am largely supportive of trans rights, but I also believe that the science on average sex differences in strenth and speed is very compelling, and that this fact should give us pause when deciding how to define the women's category for the purposes of sport. I also know enough about gender studies and queer theory to recognize that a vocal contingency of trans activists believe that sex differences are socially constructed--i.e. they believe that male and female are not binary categories rooted in nature, rather, these categories are an effect of historical power relations rooted in patriarchy. Such activists believe that we need to deconstruct and overthrow these power relations. This strand of activism is ubiquitous in universities and is beginning to trickle out into mainstream politics and activism.

I, too, believe in social construction when it comes to a LOT of things related to gender. I do not believe that biological sex is a social construction, even if scientific research on sex sometimes reflects the bias of scientists. I don't understand how we can advance the rights of girls and women if we make it impossible to talk about the female body. Denying sex differences is post-truthism from a totalitarian leftist perspective (I am on the political left).

As an academic, runner, and feminist, I am furious and afraid. I want to advocate for female bodies in sports, but I have watched my professional societies publish story after story condemning the IAAF for "policing female bodies." I see personality-disordered people like Rachel McKinnon (transwoman cyclist) use their academic positions as a bully pulpit to shut down conversations and denigrate female-bodied women. It's a scary time, and thinking people across the political spectrum need to defend science and factual reality.

brojos need to lose the fixation on chromosomes. They think after their big “realization” about CS they are suddenly the authorities. But really they are just stuck with 1965 science and sound dumb.