Tinman training philosophy during base phase for 5k?

Make it simple wrote:

Here is why wrote:

Too moderate, never push the envelope, poor periodisation and not enough emphasis on peaking. Want to reach your max potential, look up Lydiard.

A better choice is to look up Canova , but he can be a little difficult to interpret. But the very best choice is JS with his simplicity and very effective system easy to understand.

Again, JS doesn't understand periodisation.

Here is why wrote:

Make it simple wrote:

A better choice is to look up Canova , but he can be a little difficult to interpret. But the very best choice is JS with his simplicity and very effective system easy to understand.

Again, JS doesn't understand periodisation.

He does. But he has found a smarter way with his linear system and less miles.

Make it simple wrote:

Here is why wrote:

Again, JS doesn't understand periodisation.

He does. But he has found a smarter way with his linear system and less miles.

Another reason why, pandering to the lazy.

Here is why wrote:

Hdjrrjfhsjdh wrote:

This argument gets brought up a lot: tinman has a solid philosophy but his runners will never reach/maximize their potential.

Why? Can somebody explain this?

Too moderate, never push the envelope, poor periodisation and not enough emphasis on peaking. Want to reach your max potential, look up Lydiard.

The moderate, never push approach works just fine for Kipchoge, The Ingebrigtsens, most of the top NCAA athletes (NAU, Fisher, McDonald, etc.) countless other pros. I still don’t buy it.

Justin - as a former coach of a team that competed against you and as someone that knows Tinman personally, he is a good guy, a good coach, and the philosophy is solid for a HS runner. He is very expensive to work with though and you will likely have to work with your HS coach in the fall somehow. Try out the philosophy for the summer and try to talk to your new HS coach and athletic director ASAP to figure out a workable solution for the fall. Once that is approved then consider paying tinman or another coach (in Atlanta I recommend Coach Carl now that I am out of the business).

Hdjrrjfhsjdh wrote:

This argument gets brought up a lot: tinman has a solid philosophy but his runners will never reach/maximize their potential.

Why? Can somebody explain this?

He has no solid philosophy. His best runner will run faster with much better coaches.

Gdjsjjddhj wrote:

Here is why wrote:

Too moderate, never push the envelope, poor periodisation and not enough emphasis on peaking. Want to reach your max potential, look up Lydiard.

The moderate, never push approach works just fine for Kipchoge, The Ingebrigtsens, most of the top NCAA athletes (NAU, Fisher, McDonald, etc.) countless other pros. I still don’t buy it.

You don´t know what you´re talking about.

Still waiting for an actual explanation besides “you need to push and run hard to run fast.”

It’s not like Tinman trained athletes only run easy and CV. They do speed and hills and reps at 3k-5k pace sprinkled in. Most of the guys training for the 1500-5k run between 70 and 90 miles per week.

NAU, Kipchoge, Ingebrigtsens, etc. do higher mileage (90-120) but they run easy on their easy days and their workouts focus on threshold and speed. Nothing crazy.

Ghnbdhndg wrote:

Still waiting for an actual explanation besides “you need to push and run hard to run fast.”

Ever heard of John Walker or Steve Jones?

Ghnbdhndg wrote:

Still waiting for an actual explanation besides “you need to push and run hard to run fast.”

It’s not like Tinman trained athletes only run easy and CV. They do speed and hills and reps at 3k-5k pace sprinkled in. Most of the guys training for the 1500-5k run between 70 and 90 miles per week.

NAU, Kipchoge, Ingebrigtsens, etc. do higher mileage (90-120) but they run easy on their easy days and their workouts focus on threshold and speed. Nothing crazy.

This generation is obsessed with the quick and easy way but as Lydiard said, there are no shortcuts to the top. Tinman's training doesn't allow athletes to reach their true potential because it sticks them between phase 2 and 3 of the training pyramid and for the most part they stay there throughout the season. This training lacks a large aerobic base to move up the pyramid any further and what you end up with is fairly consistent results but limited improvement throughout the season. If you are looking for a quick and easy answer that is as close as you will get, if you want a full answer you will need to do some studying on your own. Healthy Intelligent Training by Keith Livingstone is a good start but I would also recommend learning from coaches like John Kellogg and Jack Daniels.

Lydiard also told that he was sure better and more effective training systems would come in future . Actually there are shortcuts( no doping of course) , but you got to know the way . - Magic Man -

I appreciate your advice. I have already talked to my Athletic Director about this coming season, and he is on the same page with me on my issue with coaching/training this year (especially since now I am going into Junior year). He is giving me a lot of discretion on doing whatever I need, so I shouldn’t have a problem with whatever I decide to do. I’m still just a little cautious with getting an actual private coach because I have heard of situations where they just fried the kid and over worked them in high school.

This young man is a HS athlete. Most training systems, implemented properly and assuming consistent health, will help him improve drastically. It’s important to enjoy your training and believe in it. It sounds like the Tinman stuff excites him. Let him have at it.

I have never coached beyond HS but I’m guessing a training system is more important.

Is there any place for full sprints during summer training? I often see hills at mile pace effort and strides at most at 800 pace, but often at mile or 2 mile pace. If you wanted to integrate a bit of sprint work into a 5k summer training program, would you just convert a few of the hills and/or strides into 6-8 second 100% effort sprints with full recovery?

top speed wrote:

Is there any place for full sprints during summer training? I often see hills at mile pace effort and strides at most at 800 pace, but often at mile or 2 mile pace. If you wanted to integrate a bit of sprint work into a 5k summer training program, would you just convert a few of the hills and/or strides into 6-8 second 100% effort sprints with full recovery?

Yes.

top speed wrote:

Is there any place for full sprints during summer training? I often see hills at mile pace effort and strides at most at 800 pace, but often at mile or 2 mile pace. If you wanted to integrate a bit of sprint work into a 5k summer training program, would you just convert a few of the hills and/or strides into 6-8 second 100% effort sprints with full recovery?

Contrary to the previous poster and many other running coaches, NO. Not in Tinman training.

He says that while fast running (strides, 800m effort for 3k runners or 400m effort for milers) is great for distance runners, all-out sprinting is only great for sprinters.

He says that maximum sprint speed is created by genetic endowment and can only be improved by 10% max (that means Bolt, even without training would still be incredibly fast). His values for strength and endurance improvements were 300% and 2000% respectively.

According to Tinman, 4-5x200m at 800-1600m pace every week is enough to max out sprint speed at 95%. Then, it would only take 6 (for ST) to 12 (for FT) sessions of max sprint training (speed drills and short sprints) to get to 99%.

So unless you are a sprinter, Tinman would cap your sprints at 400m effort and 50-150m reps. Why risk injuries just to do 100% effort when you can be at 90%, relatively safe and get almost entirely the same benefit?

What I gather from everything I read here on the boards and from results I've seen is that Tinmans approach is great for high schoolers and post collegiate non elites that are racing either frequently or widely varying distances or both. If you're post college and not preparing for a marathon it doesn't make that much sense to put all your eggs in one basket for say a road 10k when you are going to be racing at several distances over the course of a few months and in the case of high schoolers racing so often it's good to be able to perform reasonably well at most of your races and avoid injury/burnout at a young age. Then after having a few high school years of decent milage you can move to college and hopefully be ready to handle a more strenuous program.

Takinadump wrote:

What I gather from everything I read here on the boards and from results I've seen is that Tinmans approach is great for high schoolers and post collegiate non elites that are racing either frequently or widely varying distances or both. If you're post college and not preparing for a marathon it doesn't make that much sense to put all your eggs in one basket for say a road 10k when you are going to be racing at several distances over the course of a few months and in the case of high schoolers racing so often it's good to be able to perform reasonably well at most of your races and avoid injury/burnout at a young age. Then after having a few high school years of decent milage you can move to college and hopefully be ready to handle a more strenuous program.

If you want that, go with Complex Training. Aussies produced much better results than tinman ever did.

Takinadump wrote:

What I gather from everything I read here on the boards and from results I've seen is that Tinmans approach is great for high schoolers and post collegiate non elites that are racing either frequently or widely varying distances or both. If you're post college and not preparing for a marathon it doesn't make that much sense to put all your eggs in one basket for say a road 10k when you are going to be racing at several distances over the course of a few months and in the case of high schoolers racing so often it's good to be able to perform reasonably well at most of your races and avoid injury/burnout at a young age. Then after having a few high school years of decent milage you can move to college and hopefully be ready to handle a more strenuous program.

What I have seen JS approach is superior for high schoolers and post collegiate non elites that are racing either frequently or widely varying distances or both. On just low mileage and individual perfect paced training they all improve with low risk of injuries and almost no chance of overdoing training. JS is the future!