Jack Daniel training

With that amount of rest, you're basically doing a tempo run.

My question would be, what is the subscribed pace here? Are you saying 12x400 at I with 30 seconds rest?

Seems like a weird hybrid of an I workout and an R workout. Typically, you'd tend to see 800m or less at R pace, but with a longer rest. Alternatively, you see 800m or higher at I pace with a shorter rest. So this is a bit shorter for I pace, and with a short rest, it really is more of a threshold workout.

Not sure, I would just try and understand what the purpose of the workout is from your coach and going from there.

Never hurts to ask questions.

You are correct, interval work should be 3 minutes+, however this type of workout isn't an interval workout. This is more geared toward an R-pace rep workout. The rest should definitely be a bit longer though, Daniels typically recommends jogging the same distance of the rep so 400m repeats with 400m jogs. He talks about the jog being E pace, but I allow my runners to take it a little bit slower to make it an actual jog instead of an easy run.

barryb wrote:

Our running group coach has scheduled 12 x 400s with 30 sec recovery.

My question, is this a good workout for preparing for 5k races as i know jack says that interval work should be 3-5 minutes?

am i better doing my own workout when these workouts are scheduled for the group or will it be a useful workout for my development?

Jack Daniels is not the end-all-be-all. Plenty of coaches do workouts like this. The rest will cause it to be hard enough. Ever heard of Renato Canova? He is one of my successful coaches who use intervals at 5k effort that is shorter than 3 minutes (he uses 500s and 600s in his cycle)

This is a good workout to transition to race-pace training.

3x4x400 at 5k, 30s rest, full lap between sets. Ideal for FT runners.

Then progress to 600s, 800s and finally 5x1k at 5k Pace with 90s rest. If you can handle the last workout you should be able to race very close to it.

Always listen to the coach and do workouts with groups. Adjust them if they are very bad, but never skip them.

Daniels is also not a good training system, look into Tinman or Brad Hudson. The I-pace intervals of 3-5 min length wear down runners after just a few weeks.

I'm assuming you're an adult runner in the 17-20 range for 5K, used to working within a Daniels framework.

No, this is not an R pace workout. You (running 17-20 for 5K) can't hit R pace for 400 off of 30 seconds rest. You'd be collapsing after 4 reps.

No, this is not an I pace workout. You're not spending enough time (3-5 minutes) at pace to get the benefits Daniels is looking for.

No, this is not a T pace workout. The reps are too short and the rests are too long for cruise intervals.

So: R is too difficult. T is too easy. I is maybe doable, but weird. My guess is that this is something like a 10K-pace/CV workout, with the rests at moderate or steady pace rather than a slow jog or standing. It doesn't seem to fit the Daniels framework very well, but that doesn't mean it's a bad workout. It could be a decent workout, but it highly depends on the pace and the exact nature of the rests.

from what i gather, the others try run it at their 5k pace.

would it be a good workout or better sticking with the daniels I Pace workouts?

First off, given the re: line, I am going to assume that you prefer a Daniels method of training.

For a Daniels devotee, 400s at (presumably) I pace, even with short rest, is not an optimal workout. As noted elsewhere, intervals of 3:00 to 5:00 are preferred in the Daniels scheme of things.

But just because a workout may not be optimal doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. This kind of workout can be a great way to break into vo2max work, particularly if you haven't done it in a while. It can also be a great way to lock into goal race pace at the tail end of a training cycle. It might also be a good way to get in some vo2max maintenance work in a relatively low impact way in the middle of a cycle on a week where you may want to do some faster speed work or emphasize threshold work.

Also, while this may be a grade B workout from a Daniels' perspective because it does effectuate a vo2max adaptation, but gives you relatively low "bang for your buck" as compared to the longer I workouts, my philosophy is that doing a grade B workout with a group is often better than doing a grade A workout alone. So unless this is the style of workout that your coach is giving you every week during the heart of the cycle, do the workout with the group. If he or she is giving you this style of workout every week and you are a Daniels devotee, then find a different coach.

As former sub 14:00 notes, there are plenty of other approaches other than Daniels that work. I would say that whatever approach you follow, you should follow that approach consistently. He mentions Canova, for example. Canova is very specific in his goal of funneling you toward goal race pace over time. You really cannot mix and match styles of workouts - an interesting Canova style workout one week, a meat and potatoes Daniels workout another week, a Tinman CV workout another week - because each coach's approach is to build upon prior workouts in the training cycle or to build towards future workouts in the cycle.

Also, I obviously wholly disagree with Hanzo that a Daniels approach is not a good approach. That approach has worked fairly well for me over time, as well as for people that I coach, and to is probably the most prevalent approach to training in the NCAA today. Pulling workouts out of a book and cranking away indiscriminately isn't a great idea regardless of the coaching philosophy to which you subscribe. Building smartly, listening to your body, and adjusting workouts based on the feedback your body gives you is essential to a good and healthy fitness progression.

COACH JS would recommend 15- 20 by 400m at 5 k race pace and rest back to 120 beats per min heartrate. That is a perfect VO2max workout . Check him up here. www.coachjs.se

Yeah. yeaaah

And LT workouts 10-12 x 1200m until 120 hr

It depends. For VO2 max work (what Daniels calls I) yes you should normally be doing 800s or farther, however the most important thing is volume. It's not a bad idea to have a set volume (say, ~4800m) and then run all your workouts at that volume, but increasing the length of the reps throughout the year. For example start with 12x400, then 8x600, 6x800, 5x1000, 4x1200, and finally 3x1600 (you can also do ladder workouts that include some combination of those distances). This will allow you to increase the difficulty of your workouts without increasing the pounding on your legs.

Thank you guys. i like Coach Daniels approach. thats why this workout with the group has me a bit unsure. it would be great in the group environment but then the 3-5 minutes offer better bang for your buck. or better use of limited training time.

id like to race some 10ks in coming months and then onto half marathon and maybe full so would like to get a good phase of I work in.

barryb wrote:

Thank you guys. i like Coach Daniels approach. thats why this workout with the group has me a bit unsure. it would be great in the group environment but then the 3-5 minutes offer better bang for your buck. or better use of limited training time.

id like to race some 10ks in coming months and then onto half marathon and maybe full so would like to get a good phase of I work in.

This is a threshold workout. I would shorten the rest to 20 to 25 seconds and add a few more reps. Run each about 10 to 15 seconds per mile faster than threshold pace.

If you want a threshold workout skip the 400s and and just run a a threshold workout. What distance are you training for ?

Preston brooks wrote:

If you want a threshold workout skip the 400s and and just run a a threshold workout. What distance are you training for ?

There are different benefits from different types of threshold workouts. There is a reason that 20-25 x 400 is popular with the Ingebrigtsens.