I wonder if what is the accurate breathing rate when you run shorter distances, longer distances and easy days.
Many runners advocate that when you run at 1500m, you usually at 2-1.
at 5000 to 10000, you are at 2-2.
at half to full marathon, you are at 3-3.
at easy runs, you are at 4-4 or even slower.
However, i think everyones cadence is different and so on their steps-to-breathing rates are varied.
What is the principle of physiology behind these advices?
goprobreathing wrote:
I wonder if what is the accurate breathing rate when you run shorter distances, longer distances and easy days.
Many runners advocate that when you run at 1500m, you usually at 2-1.
at 5000 to 10000, you are at 2-2.
at half to full marathon, you are at 3-3.
at easy runs, you are at 4-4 or even slower.
However, i think everyones cadence is different and so on their steps-to-breathing rates are varied.
What is the principle of physiology behind these advices?
Nobody good uses 4-4 for anything. If you are a good runner, it is 2-2 for HM or marathon. 3-3 is for very easy running, but many use 2-2 even for easy days.
Just run baby
Yeah, I think about this all the time when I am running/racing - NOT!!
I obsess over my breathing when I run and I think it really hurts my performance by inciting panic.. can't seem to shake it. I can forget about my breathing on my easy runs so I have no idea how fast it is, maybe 4 in/out or more. Once I start pushing to marathon pace and up to threshold I switch to 3-3, by the time I'm at 5k pace I feel like I'm suffocating but breathing faster just incites dizziness/panic. Maybe I'm just broken?
Riz wrote:
Once I start pushing to marathon pace and up to threshold I switch to 3-3, by the time I'm at 5k pace I feel like I'm suffocating but breathing faster just incites dizziness/panic. Maybe I'm just broken?
Most people do not think about their breathing, so you definitely have a problem. You may start to swim with head underwater and breath sideways (freestyle), take swimmingclasses if you can't do it, swimming 1000 meters (or less or more) a few times a week will train you to breath natural and without panic.
You are wasting energy by thinking about breathing. The less you think about that nonsense the faster you will run
For some reason I always think about my breathing, and enjoy doing so. Maybe it's a superstition, habit, or just something to think about when running . My patterns match what you wrote exactly, down to a tee, except for 1500, as I struggle to breathe faster than 2-2 and so never do - it feels totally unnatural. 2-2, but deep, is my max.
Cadence is 165-175 at easy/moderate pace.
I don't agree with these patterns being prescribed though, as some coaches do including Daniels. Maybe more so than cadence, you should just breathe however comes naturally. I've tried 2-2 at easy pace and it's ridiculous.
Not good info wrote:
Nobody good uses 4-4 for anything. If you are a good runner, it is 2-2 for HM or marathon. 3-3 is for very easy running, but many use 2-2 even for easy days.
I'm curious about his statement. If you have good lung capcity and aerobic fitness, why wouldn't you breathe long/slow at easy pace - 4-4 or even 5-5? That would show you've got plenty in reserve. Why go at 3-3 or even 2-2, breathing like a mouse? Serious question.
Breathing = life wrote:
If you have good lung capcity and aerobic fitness, why wouldn't you breathe long/slow at easy pace - 4-4 or even 5-5? That would show you've got plenty in reserve. Why go at 3-3 or even 2-2, breathing like a mouse? Serious question.
Because you want to train your breathing muscles too. You can use 3-3 for a few minutes to check if your easy runs are truly easy, but it's better to always breathe 2-2.
2-2 Is optimal for any distance.
Jack Daniels calculated:
For a runner with 180 cadence:
4-4 rate, 4 liters per breath = 90 liters/minute
3-3 rate, 3.5 liters per breath = 105 liters/minute
2-2 rate, 3 liters per breath = 135 liters/minute
I forgot exactly what he wrote about 1-1 rate, but it's very tiring, and you move around a greater percentage of 'dead air': air that moves around in your windpipe but doesn't enter your lungs.
1-1 Is best reserved for a final kick of a race, or hard runs at altitude, where there's less air resistance so it's easier to breath fast.
Two points about that. 1. If you breathe at a slower rate, but still comfortable, you're ventilating less than at the 'optimal' rate. Which in training is a good thing. Julian Goater talked about this - breathe in a slower pattern sometimes to simulate hypoxic training. E.g. breathing 4-4 while running moderately hard (guessing he meant something like HM pace). From The Art of Running Faster:
I was trying to mimic altitude training, where your body is deprived
of oxygen. Nowadays it’s called hypoxic training. It’s thought to increase the
ability of the muscles to work better when oxygen levels are low, like at the
end of a race. Coaches have swimmers do it—they tell the athletes they’re only
allowed to breathe once every six strokes—or not at all for a whole length. That’s
a killer, too, and it’s the same sort of thing I was trying to do on that little bit
of the run all those years ago.
If you want to keep your breathing controlled, it’s important to increase your
lung capacity. Like your heart, your lungs adapt to the demands placed on them
in training. And just as a big heart needs to beat less frequently than a small one
to pump the same amount of blood around the body, so a large pair of lungs
needs to inhale less frequently than a small pair.
2.
Those Daniels calculations assume a certain number of litres per breath. That's a big assumption and he didn't say where it came from or how confident he is in them. Like Goater said above, someone with bigger lungs may get the same number of lites in/out per minute at 4-4 than someone with small lungs breathing at 2-2. Which would wreck the argument that 2- 2 is optimal for everyone.
I'd like to know if it's actually worth deliberately breathing faster in training in order to get used to it for races, train the breathing muscles, etc. Or if it's worth breathing slower to make your body adapt to lower ventilation i.e. get more efficient. Is it worth alternating some runs fast some slow? Any other coaches write about this, or any research?
I only breathe after a run. I don't have time to breathe while running.
This thread is worse than Dave's attempt at a trans con. ha ha
Breathing = life wrote:
Those Daniels calculations assume a certain number of litres per breath. That's a big assumption and he didn't say where it came from or how confident he is in them. Like Goater said above, someone with bigger lungs may get the same number of lites in/out per minute at 4-4 than someone with small lungs breathing at 2-2. Which would wreck the argument that 2- 2 is optimal for everyone.
Well I can imagine litres/breath are easy to measure with a mask, on a treadmill.
You'd need double the lung capacity for 4-4 to have the same volume/min as 2-2.
I imagine it's easier to accustom your breathing muscles to maintain 2-2 than to double your lung capacity.
I’d say the OP is bell-curve accurate, with caveats that 1. breath rate will increase over the duration of an effort, and 2. you left out what I believe to be a - the most, even - very important ratio: 3:2. For most people, 3:2 represents the peak sustainable intensity for aerobic work - and I believe it helps prevent overuse injuries* and side stitches in some people - but it is often ignored and must take some practice to get used to.
*Purely anecdotal, but I believe there is some merit in the idea that you stride more powerfully on the exhale, and should alternate which foot is the “exhale” foot. Might help you; won’t hurt you.
mouthbreather wrote:
I imagine it's easier to accustom your breathing muscles to maintain 2-2 than to double your lung capacity.
For people with small lungs, of course. But if you have bigger lungs ventilating the same volume at 4-4 as someone else at 2- or 3-3, my question is should you stick to 4-4 and accept you're not training your system to go at 2-2 when you're racing (but you are practicing breathing deeply), or should you train at 2-2 even though you have to struggle to breathe very shallowly? There's a breathing depth vs. frequency chart there. Like stride length vs. cadence.
goprobreathing wrote:
I wonder if what is the accurate breathing rate when you run shorter distances, longer distances and easy days.
Many runners advocate that when you run at 1500m, you usually at 2-1.
at 5000 to 10000, you are at 2-2.
at half to full marathon, you are at 3-3.
at easy runs, you are at 4-4 or even slower.
However, i think everyones cadence is different and so on their steps-to-breathing rates are varied.
What is the principle of physiology behind these advices?
First, some background. Runners should breathe from the belly, not from the chest. This is called diaphragmatic breathing. Instead of breathing in, you forcefully breathe out by contracting the diaphragm. Then, you let air naturally flow back in. The out-breath should use the nose as much as possible. Breathing in will require nose and mouth breathing.
IIRC, diaphragmatic breathing allows fresh air to get deeper into the lungs where it can impact the parasympathetic nervous system, triggering a relaxation response. OTOH, shallow chest breathing mostly pulls air into the upper portion of the lungs, which impact the sympathetic nervous system, which triggers anxiety and a fight or flight response.
I use diaphragmatic breathing 100% of the time. For slower running, I ignore the count. Tempo and faster, I use a 1-3 ratio. Breathe out hard on 1 (actually to about 1 1/2) and then breathe in on the 2-3-4 count.
If you want to maximize your performance as a runner, you need to monitor everything... EVERYTHING... breathing, footstrike, how you hold your hands, how you swing your arms. If you have world class talent, you can ignore some of these things, but for the rest of us, being the best you can be is a lot more than just putting in the miles.
This all makes sense, including being aware of hands, footstrike etc. But I took a moment to imagine breathing 1-3 at tempo pace, with the 1-out being through the nose, and there's no way could I do that for more than a few strides. You must have a powerful hooter, that's for sure.
Breathing = life wrote:
This all makes sense, including being aware of hands, footstrike etc. But I took a moment to imagine breathing 1-3 at tempo pace, with the 1-out being through the nose, and there's no way could I do that for more than a few strides. You must have a powerful hooter, that's for sure.
It takes a strong diaphragm. Douillard teaches that to learn how to breath out mostly through the nose, you make a Darth Vader sound when breathing out by forcefully contracting the diaphragm. It took me months to get my diaphragm strong enough to breathe that way for an entire 800m.
And it's not quite a 1-3 ratio. It's more like a forceful breath out that's almost completely done by 1 and a trailing off/pause to 2, then a relaxed diaphragm to allow air to flow back into the lungs for 2-3-4.
You really can't do it (the 1-3 or 2-2 breathing) until you're running at tempo pace or faster because you'll hyperventilate pretty quickly from too much oxygen.
Douillard explains it in his book Body Mind Sport. I think it's 25 years old by now, but you can still find copies on Amazon, I think.