I am a masters woman who has been running distances for years, I want to try something new. I feel like moving down to the sprints or shorter distances for a while will keep me feeling young and strong and will possibly give me an edge when I move back up to distance. I personally don’t think I’m very fast but I did 6 x 150m reps with 2 minutes rest today to get an idea of my speed and all ended up in the 24-25 second region.
I would say 35 seconds for a 200 — but I don’t actually know.
Good for you still going for it and changing things up.
I would say around 32 to 33ish. a better gauge is going to be 200 or 300 hundreds, because 150 is still too short. you're relying on true speed, and 800 is all about speed endurance. I wouldn't suggest training for the 800. The work is too specific to that race. you will sacrifice a lot of aerobic develop for the speed needed if you want to truly train for it correctly. I would suggest training for the mile and then jump into an 800. you'll still run fast, but you'll also be able to jump up a handle a 5k and handle your normal distances better unless you're a 10k and up person. Then you'll just have to peak for that mile race and start a new cycle.
I think I am capable of anywhere between 32-35 in a 200m but probably (definitely) not faster. My fastest was 29 seconds a whole 3 dacades ago at age 16, I came first on sports day. I do want to focus on sprinting, I have a good but not excellent level of aerobic fitness. The reason I want to choose the sprints is because I feel like maintaining my higher end speed is more important now than ever as I age, I am at the ugly end of my 40s and most women slow down dramatically during this time due to the hormonal changes of menopause. I was thinking any anaerobic work would do nothing but help at the age I am at. So if I wasn’t going to focus on the 800, my next best choice would be the 400. However, I didn’t choose the 100/200 because having a lifetime of no central nervous conditioning/no practice with sprinting makes me truly wonder or whether I would just be fighting the tide and not really improving at this point but I definitely want to make the most of my speed before it is too late. My mile is in the neighbourhood of 6 minutes, and although my 5k-mara times have done nothing but improve with all of the mileage over the years, my mile and under times are at an all time plateau I cannot see myself getting ay faster until I work on my 400/800m speed. I definitely have ways to go, my 400 to 800 conversion/speed endurance is my biggest weakness right now.
Technically you need to be able to do at least a 37.5, because that's the pace for the 800.
However a sprinter that runs 27 seconds for a 200 won't always be able to run a 2:30 if they've never trained any endurance.
So there isn't a minimum, but if you're a true distance runner with good endurance then you could probably blast out a 32 second 200 during practice if you're really trying if your 800 speed is 2:30.
Do some core workouts and hills and quick strides after runs and the speed will come, you don't have to do sprinter workouts to get to that speed.
My endurance isn’t solid, I am more of an all-rounded runner meaning that my age grades stay practically the same for all distances, I wouldn’t say I have a biased specialty like a pure middle distance runner (genetically high vo2) or a pure sprinter (high percentage of fast/very fast twitch). I forgot to mention that my current 800m shape is around 2:50.
:37.5
Given your backround, you will want to be able to race sub-32 for 200, but 33.0 in practice may be enough. Your 400 will need to be around 67 seconds. A workout that will indicate this type of speed endurance is 10x100 in 17.0 with 3 minute recovery. This is something to work towards using hills, strides, plyos, weights, etc.. Having others to train with is a huge help.
I am also shooting for sub-2:30 this summer (age 62) and can do the 10x100 in 17.6 now, during my mileage base-build (up to 65 miles/week, but that is way more than needed for the 800 alone).
One big reason I prefer the 800 is theneed for overall fitness, not just raw endurance.
I was once a 1:52 800 runner when I could run 23 in the 200. Now as a master, I can barely break 2:30 but I can run about 5 minutes for 1600 and 10:30 for 3200. I can only run 35 for 200 meters. It's weird getting old.
If it helps, I had a best 800m of around 2.18. At that time my best 200m was 27 sec. I agree good on you for changing things around!
Okay so in order to get 67 in a 400m I would need to hold my all out 200 pace for twice as long, how long would it take to achieve that? I am guessing a lot of 80-150 repeats, alactic work and speed endurance reps 300-600m is how I would get there along with maintaining a base.
I belong to a running club but they all train for distamces 5k to marathon, there aren’t really any local sprint groups I can join at this time which makes it harder and also means I will have to self coach.
Like you, I was(am) a distance runner. After 20 years of that kind of running I decided to hit the all comers meets and see what I could do. Turns out ... Not much. I did the AC meets for a couple years and the best I could muster was about what you are looking to do - 31, 68, 2:28. I did run a 4:55 1500 and I was happiest with that one over all the others. 48 years old at the time.
elviejo wrote:
Like you, I was(am) a distance runner. After 20 years of that kind of running I decided to hit the all comers meets and see what I could do. Turns out ... Not much. I did the AC meets for a couple years and the best I could muster was about what you are looking to do - 31, 68, 2:28. I did run a 4:55 1500 and I was happiest with that one over all the others. 48 years old at the time.
We have similar speed but your speed endurance is superior to mine. It is something I haven’t trained for because I have been too engrossed in 5k-marathon for years and just doing whatever my running club wants to do, they are all long distance/ultra bunnies but I am now sick of that sort of training and am finding it harder to recover from!
SharonIcer wrote:
elviejo wrote:
Like you, I was(am) a distance runner. After 20 years of that kind of running I decided to hit the all comers meets and see what I could do. Turns out ... Not much. I did the AC meets for a couple years and the best I could muster was about what you are looking to do - 31, 68, 2:28. I did run a 4:55 1500 and I was happiest with that one over all the others. 48 years old at the time.
We have similar speed but your speed endurance is superior to mine. It is something I haven’t trained for because I have been too engrossed in 5k-marathon for years and just doing whatever my running club wants to do, they are all long distance/ultra bunnies but I am now sick of that sort of training and am finding it harder to recover from!
I am 25 years old, so I can't related. I have been a student of running, since I was 16. I have watched professionals and age groupers hit that age barrier. typically the mileage and workload just gets to you, and like you said you can't recover. most people increase distance as they get older, because the speed is just not there. peak age for speed is around 26 to 28 guys and 25 to 27 for girls. That is true sprint speed. Guys like lagat can last forever. I listened to an interview where he talked about he training. He focused on nutrition and cut some of the miles, but everything was high quality work. I know Lagat was a freak and definitely not the norm, but the principals are solid. you will run your best times you can at that age in the upper distances just have to adjust the training.
But if you're dead set on the 800. There's a lot of different training approaches. You can come at it as a true sprint 400 800 meter run, which I wouldn't suggest since you haven't developed that all. or you can approaches as middle distance runner. I would suggest this approach. you are having a hard time recovering from the mileage, but the speed you are going to have to do is going to trash your legs just as bad, since you don't have any adaption to speed the risk of injury is higher. The type of training I would do is lower the mileage from what you were doing maybe 20% or so after base phase. Throw in one day of true speed work maybe 8x50s or 8x 10 sec hill repeats after a run, and build into a full true speed session. do this one week and then do speed endurance the next something like 4x200 after a run and build it into a full session like 8x200. easy recovery day or 2. Then throw in a hard vo2 workout like 8x400 or 10x300 with 2 or 3 mins rest, but these are slightly faster then mile pace. and then at the end of the week do a long run. you'll be able to blast the 800, but you'll also be able to run a fast mile and 5k. This is more of a 6 week or so before racing with the v02, but the speed you can start 12 weeks out and by 6 weeks out you'll have a true speed session and v02 workout a week. and of course weights, plyos etc all this stuff is important in middle distance. This isn't anything new. This is classic 800/1500 training.
Runner3000 wrote:
SharonIcer wrote:
We have similar speed but your speed endurance is superior to mine. It is something I haven’t trained for because I have been too engrossed in 5k-marathon for years and just doing whatever my running club wants to do, they are all long distance/ultra bunnies but I am now sick of that sort of training and am finding it harder to recover from!
I am 25 years old, so I can't related. I have been a student of running, since I was 16. I have watched professionals and age groupers hit that age barrier. typically the mileage and workload just gets to you, and like you said you can't recover. most people increase distance as they get older, because the speed is just not there. peak age for speed is around 26 to 28 guys and 25 to 27 for girls. That is true sprint speed. Guys like lagat can last forever. I listened to an interview where he talked about he training. He focused on nutrition and cut some of the miles, but everything was high quality work. I know Lagat was a freak and definitely not the norm, but the principals are solid. you will run your best times you can at that age in the upper distances just have to adjust the training.
But if you're dead set on the 800. There's a lot of different training approaches. You can come at it as a true sprint 400 800 meter run, which I wouldn't suggest since you haven't developed that all. or you can approaches as middle distance runner. I would suggest this approach. you are having a hard time recovering from the mileage, but the speed you are going to have to do is going to trash your legs just as bad, since you don't have any adaption to speed the risk of injury is higher. The type of training I would do is lower the mileage from what you were doing maybe 20% or so after base phase. Throw in one day of true speed work maybe 8x50s or 8x 10 sec hill repeats after a run, and build into a full true speed session. do this one week and then do speed endurance the next something like 4x200 after a run and build it into a full session like 8x200. easy recovery day or 2. Then throw in a hard vo2 workout like 8x400 or 10x300 with 2 or 3 mins rest, but these are slightly faster then mile pace. and then at the end of the week do a long run. you'll be able to blast the 800, but you'll also be able to run a fast mile and 5k. This is more of a 6 week or so before racing with the v02, but the speed you can start 12 weeks out and by 6 weeks out you'll have a true speed session and v02 workout a week. and of course weights, plyos etc all this stuff is important in middle distance. This isn't anything new. This is classic 800/1500 training.
This is pretty good advice.
Your risk, as I see it as a 71-year-old 400m/800m guy, is injury from the increased range of motion necessary to race the 800 after decades of reduced range of motion. You need to ease into it with short hill repeats. I'd also suggest that you only do a short run before your 8x200m. You don't want your muscles to be tight AND add speed AND add going around turns. You need to work your way into it.
A good approach might be a mile warm up, drills, 5 minutes at tempo pace, drills, and then 8x200m. There's no need to run these super fast. If you can start at 40 seconds, you can then work your way down to 34-36 over a few weeks.
Eventually, you'll want to increase the distance to 3 sets of 3x300m.
We are in the same boat. I have only run 35.xx in practice, but it is only February. When I ran 55 in my 40s I never had broken that pace for 200 in practice, just like how I ran 2:05 without ever running a 62 in repeats. It's important ot to strain or force things early. Sprinting and speed work as a high injury risk. Your best ally is focusing on technique and relaxation, rather than time. If you are having fun and getig smoother, the times will come. It's also a matter of gradual progress and then taking proper recovery and racing a lot when you want to peak.
I train with much faster guys, but I just do "partials", so if they are doing 200s, I jump in the final 100, or final 200 of 400, etc.. It allows me the benefit of their company and I can provide a target for the second half of their rep. Most running groups will have somebody that will run 2:30-ish pace or better at some point in the workout. If not, look for another faster group and explain what you are shooting for. They probably will be glad to help.
Most of my training right now includes some sort of fartlek, with lots of drills on a daily basis. I also do a lot of gymnastic work on monkey-bar sort of setups which helps strength and core a ton.
To give you something to compare your training, I ran the 800m in 2:40 this past summer. My 8x200m repeats were progressive, starting around 45 seconds, then 40, 38, 38, break for 4 minutes, 36, 38, 35, 31. I'm more of a sprinter so don't be concerned if you can't hit 31 on these reps.
My best recent 200m is 29.7.
I'm a mid 40-something guy and a bit slower than the OP I believe [14-high self timed 100m, 32-3 200m of dubious hand timing], 72s 400, and fade to a 5:58 or so mile, 20 flat 5k and then it just gets tremendously bad from there. I think my 800 is like 2:45 heh [I have no idea how to race it tho and only do it in workouts]
I think the one thing nobody mentioned yet has been to get into the gym
Squats, deads need to be part of your routine, with other body strengthening routines. Just like the sprinters do [and distance runners should be kinda doing too, esp when you get older]
Add weight lifting to your already good/great running resume and you'll hit your goals and then some I believe.
Get ye to the gym. FWIW I only use biking as my lower body exercise and have zero sprinting capability. I lift... but for the upper body only and it's to my detriment on the track but I'm confident it has little to do with my general fitness goals from biking 100mpw my legs are pretty developed, I just cant sprint and theres only so many hours in the week /so much energy to go around so my lifting is catered around the upper body. Oh well
Most of the answers appear in the right ball-park. But as with any middle-distance event you will need a certain basic speed in addition to speed-endurance. Based on my similar experience of running to beat 2.30 for the 800 when I was 12, I might suggest the following:
To be able to run two 75 sec laps together you will likely need to be able to run sub 67-68 for the 400. To be able to run that pace will likely require that you are able to run sub 31-32 for 200. That is your basic speed (as measured according to the Lydiard formula).
No one runs faster than their basic speed for further than 200; at every further distance there has to be a reduction of pace or you "blow up" - no matter what your speed endurance, although the rate of decline is less for the aerobically more efficient runner.
In essence, you won't run faster at middle-distance than your basic speed will allow, no matter what your fitness is. Hence 5k specialists are not 800 specialists. They aren't fast enough.
I suggest you run some 200's and see what your best times are. With some speed work you can always improve on them. But ultimately you aren't going to get any faster than the limit imposed by how much - or how little - fast-twitch fibre you have. That said, your target may well be possible for you. Good luck.
Never raced shorter than a 1500 but.....
Go run one all out for a baseline! Of course warmup using the advice on here but running an all out 800 right now will be valuable down the road.
Post your results. Some of The BEST Threads on LR are the progression to a goal ones so entertain us please.