Western States transgender policy seems to be a good one

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  • LetsRun.com
    your benevolent dictator
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 8:43am CST
    Forum Index
    Someone started a thread about Western States' transgender policy that was entirely misleading as it implied a biological man could run as a woman with no proof required. We have deleted that thread a) because it was misleading and b) because it used the word "trannie" which isn't a word that is acceptable to use on our website.

    It appears Western States transgender policy is one we would support at LetsRun.com. Someone's gender is accepted at face value but anyone finishing top 10 or scoring in an age group needs to show they received hormonal treatment for at least a year.

    Here is their policy.

    Policy Enforcement

    A runner’s self-declared gender at registration will be accepted at face value. The sole reason for this policy is to ensure fairness regarding competition for awards and records. Therefore, there shall be no basis for, or tolerance of, any challenge to a runner’s self-declared gender unless a top 10 finish or age group award is at stake.

    WSER shall have the sole authority to review any challenge regarding the gender status of a top 10 finisher or age group winner. Any such challenge must be made directly in person or writing to the Race Director with the utmost discretion and respect for the privacy of all parties involved. WSER in its sole discretion will determine whether there is a legitimate basis for the challenge.

    Gender Status Review

    In the event of a challenge, WSER may ask the runner for documentation from a medical doctor or healthcare provider or other qualified professional certifying that the entrant has undergone continuous, medically supervised hormone treatment for gender transition for at least one year prior to the race. (See WSER Medical Clearance.) Transgender entrants, at their option, may provide the medical documentation related to their gender transition to the Race Director prior to the race. All information about the runner’s gender identity and medical information, including any information provided pursuant to this policy, shall be kept strictly confidential.

    The final decision regarding the entrant’s gender status shall be within the sole discretion of WSER. If it is determined that the runner is not in compliance with WSER’s rules for transgender entrants, the runner will be allowed to keep their WSER finisher’s buckle but any top 10 finisher or age group awards shall be returned to WSER. WSER will attempt to protect the runner’s privacy interests to the maximum extent possible.

    https://www.wser.org/transgender-entrant-policy/?fbclid=IwAR1w5tpNYwyszNjxPfkWz27AQmfTkO7wGQv3ZKtL5vuMy5vinpkEJ_tWoAs
  • broken arrow
    registered
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 9:08am CST
    re: LetsRun.com
    Forum Index
    You are either a male or female at birth, regardless of what crazy plastic surgery or hormonal therapy you have had.
  • sub sub elite local hobby jogger
    registered
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 9:22am CST
    re: broken arrow
    Forum Index
    broken arrow wrote:

    You are either a male or female at birth, regardless of what crazy plastic surgery or hormonal therapy you have had.


    This is not true at all for a not insignificant percentage of the population and you can easily find information that disproves your claim if you actually were interested in knowing the details.
  • broken arrow
    registered
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 9:31am CST
    re: sub sub elite local hobby jogger
    Forum Index
    It is not my claim, there have always been just two genders.
  • death of female sports
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 9:35am CST
    re: sub sub elite local hobby jogger
    Forum Index
    Not surprising the male benevolent dictators would take this approach. This is not right for the female athletes, it isn't unlike competing against someone who had the advantages of doping etc. There are skeletal differences that are not changed by hormones. I believe you should have XY chromosomes to compete as a female. This is totally wrong for female athletics!!
  • SDSU Aztec
    registered
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 9:43am CST
    re: broken arrow
    Forum Index
    broken arrow wrote:

    It is not my claim, there have always been just two genders.


    Why do you care if a transgender wins a masters cycling race in Canada, some sprints in Florida or maybe finishes in the top ten at WS? People don't choose to be transgender just so they can race against women and it hasn't become an issue at any national race such as FL or NCAA. Why are you so offended?
  • NeedQuantitativeInfo
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 9:45am CST
    re: sub sub elite local hobby jogger
    Forum Index

    This is not true at all for a not insignificant percentage of the population and you can easily find information that disproves your claim if you actually were interested in knowing the details.


    What's the insignificant percentage?
  • ddnbb
    registered
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 9:54am CST
    re: NeedQuantitativeInfo
    Forum Index
    NeedQuantitativeInfo wrote:


    This is not true at all for a not insignificant percentage of the population and you can easily find information that disproves your claim if you actually were interested in knowing the details.


    What's the not insignificant percentage?


    Approximately 1.7% of people are born intersex, making it approximately as common as being born with red hair.

    https://www.intersexequality.com/how-common-is-intersex-in-humans/

    People who are born intersex are neither strictly male nor strictly female. Since over 98% of people are born either male or female, it's easy to see why people could think that everyone is born either female or male. But 1.7% is not an insignificant percentage of people, just as the number of people with red hair is small but not insignificant. (Being born intersex is different than being transgender; adding in people who are transgender increases the percentage above 1.7%.)
  • asdfasdf
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 10:03am CST
    re: ddnbb
    Forum Index
    I think that figure of 1.7% is misleading and the actual number is much lower. I heard this on the radio the other day. Apologies I couldn't find a text version.

    I agree that the Western States policy sounds reasonable. I also don't understand why people get so worked up about these things that will not affect them.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000222z
  • itspat
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 10:24am CST
    re: asdfasdf
    Forum Index
    It's affecting people in D2 with CeCe 'dontcallmeCraig' Telfer

    http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9148806&page=2

    asdfasdf wrote:

    I think that figure of 1.7% is misleading and the actual number is much lower. I heard this on the radio the other day. Apologies I couldn't find a text version.

    I agree that the Western States policy sounds reasonable. I also don't understand why people get so worked up about these things that will not affect them.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000222z
  • Not An Expert
    registered
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 10:28am CST
    re: LetsRun.com
    Forum Index
    LetsRun.com wrote:
    Someone started a thread about Western States' transgender policy that was entirely misleading as it implied a biological man could run as a woman with no proof required. We have deleted that thread a) because it was misleading and b) because it used the word "trannie" which isn't a word that is acceptable to use on our website.


    Thanks, but the other thread is still (back?) up.
  • broken arrow
    registered
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 10:30am CST
    re: SDSU Aztec
    Forum Index
    SDSU Aztec wrote:

    broken arrow wrote:

    It is not my claim, there have always been just two genders.


    Why do you care if a transgender wins a masters cycling race in Canada, some sprints in Florida or maybe finishes in the top ten at WS? People don't choose to be transgender just so they can race against women and it hasn't become an issue at any national race such as FL or NCAA. Why are you so offended?


    I could care less. I am just stating that there are two genders. I have all but given up caring who wins races and games in team sports as cheating of one way or another is so pervasive it is impossible to tell what is real and what is not.
  • tgirl
    registered
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 10:39am CST
    re: LetsRun.com
    Forum Index
    Nice job Rojo, both with the post and the editing of this thread.

    Most sports are divided into male and female categories, and the question of how precisely to handle transgender and intersex athletes is complicated. There seems to be an emerging consensus that recreational and low level sports should allow athletes to self identify as male or female, and only high level, elite, or professional sports should place any restrictions on transgender and intersex athletes.

    I too think that Western States has crafted a thoughtful policy. There is no perfect answer, but this policy could serve as a model for many other events.

    As mentioned in some now-deleted posts, trans runner Grace Fisher has entered the race. Grace is a good runner, having run a sub three hour marathon after transition. This time is in line with her performance in the men’s category prior to transition. Trail running times are tougher to judge, but the organizers of the WSER think that Grace has an outside chance of placing in the top ten women, and wanted to craft an appropriate prior to this year’s race. I think they have succeeded.

    There have been questions on the frequency of intersex and transgender people and these are not easy questions to answer. Transgender people probably make up between 0.5% to 1% of the population. There are many definitions of who precisely qualifies as intersex, and hence estimates of the intersex population vary from 0.1% to 1.7%.
  • checkpoint
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 10:42am CST
    re: death of female sports
    Forum Index
    death of female sports wrote:

    Not surprising the male benevolent dictators would take this approach. This is not right for the female athletes, it isn't unlike competing against someone who had the advantages of doping etc. There are skeletal differences that are not changed by hormones. I believe you should have XY chromosomes to compete as a female. This is totally wrong for female athletics!!


    I don't know anything about the details of gender transformation, but I assume it's a very expensive, lengthy, and uncomfortable process and in many cases results in social rejection.

    I can't imagine that any male would undergo this process of changing their entire identity just to win a few hundred extra $ in a distance race. Especially WS, which is so difficult to get into anyway.

    I agree the WS policy is reasonable and it's really a non-issue. If they want to prevent cheating the focus should be on effective drug testing.
  • OLD SMTC SOB
    registered
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 10:42am CST
    re: SDSU Aztec
    Forum Index
    SDSU Aztec wrote:

    broken arrow wrote:

    It is not my claim, there have always been just two genders.


    Why do you care if a transgender wins a masters cycling race in Canada, some sprints in Florida or maybe finishes in the top ten at WS? People don't choose to be transgender just so they can race against women and it hasn't become an issue at any national race such as FL or NCAA. Why are you so offended?


    Because it gives them an unfair advantage, no matter what the age, level of competition or sport. Now I'm specifically referring to trans males competing as women. Trans women competing as males is something that gets no press, likely because there is a competitive disadvantage to this in most, if not all cases. While most likely do not "choose" to trans in order to compete against women, it still isn't fair to the women. The WS policy appears to try and address this issue but does not IMO.
  • Indoor?
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 10:48am CST
    re: broken arrow
    Forum Index
    Isn't there difference between being intersex and transgender?
    Intersex were born with some combo of different things while transgender were born 100% physically/genetically one way but they feel they are the other.

    Not that for sport it makes much of a difference but I agree the Western State policy seems to be about as fair and balanced as you can while respecting the competition and all potential competitors.
  • round and round
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 10:50am CST
    re: broken arrow
    Forum Index
    broken arrow wrote:

    SDSU Aztec wrote:

    broken arrow wrote:

    It is not my claim, there have always been just two genders.


    Why do you care if a transgender wins a masters cycling race in Canada, some sprints in Florida or maybe finishes in the top ten at WS? People don't choose to be transgender just so they can race against women and it hasn't become an issue at any national race such as FL or NCAA. Why are you so offended?


    I could care less. I am just stating that there are two genders. I have all but given up caring who wins races and games in team sports as cheating of one way or another is so pervasive it is impossible to tell what is real and what is not.


    So, you COULD care less?!
  • Jaime
    registered
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 10:53am CST
    re: LetsRun.com
    Forum Index
    Judging is easy. Thinking carefully about something is not. We're out there. We exist. And we're not going away. We also happen to be runners. And we are human beings.

    The science on this matter is in. One can always choose to ignore it, but that does not change the science. One may also choose to ignore my lived experience as a trans woman as well as the genuine lived experiences of the millions of other trans people in the world, but ignoring us does not change our experience of life and our genders... with the exception of the fact that a little understanding can make life a lot less difficult, equal, and friendly for those of us who identify as trans.

    At 55, I'm no longer competitive as a runner, but I do love to run. It's in my soul, as is my gender. And there is no reason to deny the experience and wonder of running to a group of people just because they happen to be different. We are all essentially the same, yet every human life is also unique. Celebrating our wonderful human diversity is far more uplifting and life affirming than is tearing others down. Think about it.
  • the world as we know it
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 11:00am CST
    re: LetsRun.com
    Forum Index
    The policy is based on the false premise that a male taking hormone therapy for at least a year is on a level playing field with women. This just isn't true. If you took Kipchoge and put him on hormone therapy you think he is going to run 15 minutes slower? Sorry no.
  • team Unruly Bush
    registered
    1 year ago 02/04/2019 11:41am CST
    re: Jaime
    Forum Index
    Hi Jaime,

    Since you are most effected by this type of policy, how do you feel about WS policy? Thanks.