Western States transgender policy seems to be a good one

You are either a male or female at birth, regardless of what crazy plastic surgery or hormonal therapy you have had.

broken arrow wrote:

You are either a male or female at birth, regardless of what crazy plastic surgery or hormonal therapy you have had.

This is not true at all for a not insignificant percentage of the population and you can easily find information that disproves your claim if you actually were interested in knowing the details.

It is not my claim, there have always been just two genders.

Not surprising the male benevolent dictators would take this approach. This is not right for the female athletes, it isn't unlike competing against someone who had the advantages of doping etc. There are skeletal differences that are not changed by hormones. I believe you should have XY chromosomes to compete as a female. This is totally wrong for female athletics!!

broken arrow wrote:

It is not my claim, there have always been just two genders.

Why do you care if a transgender wins a masters cycling race in Canada, some sprints in Florida or maybe finishes in the top ten at WS? People don't choose to be transgender just so they can race against women and it hasn't become an issue at any national race such as FL or NCAA. Why are you so offended?

This is not true at all for a not insignificant percentage of the population and you can easily find information that disproves your claim if you actually were interested in knowing the details.

What's the insignificant percentage?

NeedQuantitativeInfo wrote:

This is not true at all for a not insignificant percentage of the population and you can easily find information that disproves your claim if you actually were interested in knowing the details.

What's the not insignificant percentage?

Approximately 1.7% of people are born intersex, making it approximately as common as being born with red hair.

People who are born intersex are neither strictly male nor strictly female. Since over 98% of people are born either male or female, it's easy to see why people could think that everyone is born either female or male. But 1.7% is not an insignificant percentage of people, just as the number of people with red hair is small but not insignificant. (Being born intersex is different than being transgender; adding in people who are transgender increases the percentage above 1.7%.)

I think that figure of 1.7% is misleading and the actual number is much lower. I heard this on the radio the other day. Apologies I couldn't find a text version.

I agree that the Western States policy sounds reasonable. I also don't understand why people get so worked up about these things that will not affect them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000222z

It's affecting people in D2 with CeCe 'dontcallmeCraig' Telferhttp://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9148806&page=2

asdfasdf wrote:

I think that figure of 1.7% is misleading and the actual number is much lower. I heard this on the radio the other day. Apologies I couldn't find a text version.

I agree that the Western States policy sounds reasonable. I also don't understand why people get so worked up about these things that will not affect them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000222z

LetsRun.com wrote:

Someone started a thread about Western States' transgender policy that was entirely misleading as it implied a biological man could run as a woman with no proof required. We have deleted that thread a) because it was misleading and b) because it used the word "trannie" which isn't a word that is acceptable to use on our website.

Thanks, but the other thread is still (back?) up.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

broken arrow wrote:

It is not my claim, there have always been just two genders.

Why do you care if a transgender wins a masters cycling race in Canada, some sprints in Florida or maybe finishes in the top ten at WS? People don't choose to be transgender just so they can race against women and it hasn't become an issue at any national race such as FL or NCAA. Why are you so offended?

I could care less. I am just stating that there are two genders. I have all but given up caring who wins races and games in team sports as cheating of one way or another is so pervasive it is impossible to tell what is real and what is not.

Nice job Rojo, both with the post and the editing of this thread.

Most sports are divided into male and female categories, and the question of how precisely to handle transgender and intersex athletes is complicated. There seems to be an emerging consensus that recreational and low level sports should allow athletes to self identify as male or female, and only high level, elite, or professional sports should place any restrictions on transgender and intersex athletes.

I too think that Western States has crafted a thoughtful policy. There is no perfect answer, but this policy could serve as a model for many other events.

As mentioned in some now-deleted posts, trans runner Grace Fisher has entered the race. Grace is a good runner, having run a sub three hour marathon after transition. This time is in line with her performance in the men’s category prior to transition. Trail running times are tougher to judge, but the organizers of the WSER think that Grace has an outside chance of placing in the top ten women, and wanted to craft an appropriate prior to this year’s race. I think they have succeeded.

There have been questions on the frequency of intersex and transgender people and these are not easy questions to answer. Transgender people probably make up between 0.5% to 1% of the population. There are many definitions of who precisely qualifies as intersex, and hence estimates of the intersex population vary from 0.1% to 1.7%.

death of female sports wrote:

Not surprising the male benevolent dictators would take this approach. This is not right for the female athletes, it isn't unlike competing against someone who had the advantages of doping etc. There are skeletal differences that are not changed by hormones. I believe you should have XY chromosomes to compete as a female. This is totally wrong for female athletics!!

I don't know anything about the details of gender transformation, but I assume it's a very expensive, lengthy, and uncomfortable process and in many cases results in social rejection.

I can't imagine that any male would undergo this process of changing their entire identity just to win a few hundred extra $ in a distance race. Especially WS, which is so difficult to get into anyway.

I agree the WS policy is reasonable and it's really a non-issue. If they want to prevent cheating the focus should be on effective drug testing.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

broken arrow wrote:

It is not my claim, there have always been just two genders.

Why do you care if a transgender wins a masters cycling race in Canada, some sprints in Florida or maybe finishes in the top ten at WS? People don't choose to be transgender just so they can race against women and it hasn't become an issue at any national race such as FL or NCAA. Why are you so offended?

Because it gives them an unfair advantage, no matter what the age, level of competition or sport. Now I'm specifically referring to trans males competing as women. Trans women competing as males is something that gets no press, likely because there is a competitive disadvantage to this in most, if not all cases. While most likely do not "choose" to trans in order to compete against women, it still isn't fair to the women. The WS policy appears to try and address this issue but does not IMO.

Isn't there difference between being intersex and transgender?

Intersex were born with some combo of different things while transgender were born 100% physically/genetically one way but they feel they are the other.

Not that for sport it makes much of a difference but I agree the Western State policy seems to be about as fair and balanced as you can while respecting the competition and all potential competitors.

broken arrow wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Why do you care if a transgender wins a masters cycling race in Canada, some sprints in Florida or maybe finishes in the top ten at WS? People don't choose to be transgender just so they can race against women and it hasn't become an issue at any national race such as FL or NCAA. Why are you so offended?

I could care less. I am just stating that there are two genders. I have all but given up caring who wins races and games in team sports as cheating of one way or another is so pervasive it is impossible to tell what is real and what is not.

So, you COULD care less?!

Judging is easy. Thinking carefully about something is not. We're out there. We exist. And we're not going away. We also happen to be runners. And we are human beings.

The science on this matter is in. One can always choose to ignore it, but that does not change the science. One may also choose to ignore my lived experience as a trans woman as well as the genuine lived experiences of the millions of other trans people in the world, but ignoring us does not change our experience of life and our genders... with the exception of the fact that a little understanding can make life a lot less difficult, equal, and friendly for those of us who identify as trans.

At 55, I'm no longer competitive as a runner, but I do love to run. It's in my soul, as is my gender. And there is no reason to deny the experience and wonder of running to a group of people just because they happen to be different. We are all essentially the same, yet every human life is also unique. Celebrating our wonderful human diversity is far more uplifting and life affirming than is tearing others down. Think about it.

The policy is based on the false premise that a male taking hormone therapy for at least a year is on a level playing field with women. This just isn't true. If you took Kipchoge and put him on hormone therapy you think he is going to run 15 minutes slower? Sorry no.

Hi Jaime,

Since you are most effected by this type of policy, how do you feel about WS policy? Thanks.