Low Mileage 2Q for sub3

What did you run your half marathon times off of in terms of MPW? If you did your 1:22 off of 35-40 mpw as well, then I think sub 3 is going to be a stretch. I also think his "under 40" plan is garbage, and I say that as a guy who has used 2Q for all but his first marathon. Even the 41-55 is questionable, just not enough easy mileage outside of the big workouts. How can you do 35 mpw when your two Q days take up 28 miles of those weeks? It doesn't even make sense. It feels like a plan that his publishers told him to put in there because of the 4hr+ marathoners who don't want to run more than 40 mpw but have heard of his book.

Thanks for your reply EP. 1:22 was off of 35-40, raced it to see how I was doing approaching the halfway point of the plan. You're right in that some weeks wouldn't realistically come out to 40 miles if you run the prescribed Q sessions and do 3/4 easy days of even just a half hour. What kind of mileage would you say is a minimum for any serious attempt at sub3? Would it be sensible to pace the first half of the goal M at 1:32 and see how the endurance holds up from there to either maintain or accelerate?

You obviously have some talent to run low 1:20s on 35-40 mpw. I would say you have a shot at breaking 3 hours if you can average 50mpw for the 12-18 weeks before your marathon. Maybe you'll surprise us with a sub 3, but it seems unrealistic on 35-40 mpw with your half time. You do have potential though if you can get your training up to more traditional 60+ MPW to be a 2:45 runner.

Certainly for your first marathon, it's better to take it conservative at first, because you're going to feel amazing at mile 5 or so and want to go faster. During my marathons, MP feels like easy pace does during the depths of training, so it's a hard concept to slow down even though you've yourself dozens of times not to go out too fast.

Prioritise mileage and start conservatively, I'll implement those best I can

Moreso than any other distance, mileage is king at the marathon. In order of priority, it’s 1) MPW 2) Long runs 3) Tempo runs 4) MP work

Definitely doable. People on here are way too obsessed with mileage over "quality". I ran 2:49 off of 35, 46, 41, 40, 37, 32, 30, 28 in the preceding weeks.

That was with a half pr of 1:19 at that time. I'd never seen this site nor really had a clue about running at that time, so the only "plan" as such I had was matching the weekend long runs of some marathon plan or other (can't recall which).

The major thing I did differently to my previous marathon was doing mid week hill runs, i.e. 8-10 milers with ~ 1,000 feet of elevation. I swear that was the key difference to running comfortably faster.

Your 5k and 15k line up nicely, however as said above, there is a drop off when you look at your half time. I agree that if you can AVERAGE 50+ mpw for the remainder of your cycle you should be good. Unfortunately, young males have a very hard time running their first marathon conservatively and usually end up going out way too hard and blowing up. If you can figure out how to hold back and run 1:29 for the first half, I think you'll be good. As reference, I ran a PR of 56:29 this winter 4 weeks after running 2:54. I average over 80 a week year-round though so (literally) YMMV.

Also, the Daniels 2Q program is VERY aggressive. Don't be afraid to alter (shorten) some of the workouts. Especially since you'll be building mileage to a place you probably haven't been.

Best of luck and keep us updated.

You should use you most current race performance for your VDOT. I assume you are using the up to 40 plan.

You mentioned using the lower mileage plan to avoid injury. Are you injury prone with a history of past injuries?

How serious are you about hitting your sub3 goal? If not too serious, then you can see what results the lower mileage plan gets you. If you are serious, consider bumping up your mileage but balance that against injury risk. Not being able to train or race due to an injury is not a good situation. Also, make sure you keep your easy days easy. That could help you bump up the volume w/o too much injury risk. You have the speed to meet your goal, but will you have the endurance come race day? Thinking a little more, you are young and it is your first marathon. Don't be too serious and use your first marathon to get the experience. If you get a sub3 great. If you find yourself fading after mile 16 and miss your goal, lesson learned.

Closer to race day I would replace the 2hrs of cycling with running. I discontinue all cycling usually 2 weeks out with a minimum of 1 week of no cycling before race day. For me at least it seems that cycling tightens up my back half (calves and hamstrings) so I opt for less cycling when I am serious about a race. I do cross train if I can't run due to an injury though and that includes cycling.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Hey all, thanks for all the additional input.

T Funke I'm in the Netherlands so to get to ~1000 feet of elevation the best I could manage are bridge repeats, which I've enjoyed doing a bit but since the highest bridge is a highway I feel the exhaust fumes might make them unhealthy. 2Q does have midweek long runs with some quality included, this might cover the same base you experienced beneficial to your marathon. What was your longest run when running 2:49 off of low mileage? Did you have high lifetime mileage?

browksi The marathon I'm running has 3:00 pacers, I think if I could force myself to stick with those guys for the first half I could bring up the restraint not to start too fast. I've read on here before that 2Q is generally very aggressive, but so far the workouts to me are mostly tough-but-fair, perhaps the lower mileage version of the plan isn't as bad as what most people will have experienced - the higher mileage plans. Also, I have used goal VDOT for a 3 hour marathon for the paces, which is lower than my 5k/15k VDOT, perhaps this has kept them doable for me.

Still Improving I haven't had any injuries that have kept me on the sideline for more than a week, but have had some attempts at increasing mileage quickly that resulted in early signs of plantar fasciitis and shin splints - backing off a bit kept those at bay. Thanks for the specific advice on cycling - good idea to taper the cycling as well towards race day. I don't think I would mind not making sub3, although the idea of a painful positive split doesn't seem very appealing. I'm mostly ticking the box of my first marathon, will probably spend lots more time and effort on the shorter distances before returning to it.

I am also trying to break 3 on low mileage, 20-30 mpw. I think it is easy achievable with cross training added in. I do my running workouts HARD then top it up with cycling and gym work. It works for me over the shorter distances anyway.

mileage-vs-speed wrote:

22M running for about 14 months now, prs 17:45 - 5k (august), 56:15 - 15k (december), 1:22:28 - HM (recent). I'm running my first marathon in april to shoot for sub3. Having started running quite recently, I opted for a lower mileage plan so as not to get injured - using Daniel's 2Q with 40 miles max.

The workouts are very doable so far, but I'm wondering whether sub3 is realistic on the low mileage. Training also includes about 2 hours of cycling each week.

I agree with the guy who suggested mileage is sometimes overemphasized. You have enough talent to run sub-3 on 40 miles a week average, especially with the cross-training (cycling). But I think you'd need a few bigger weeks along the way.

The last time I ran sub-3, my average for the 20 weeks prior was about 40 miles per week. My shorter races were nearly identical to yours -- 5K was 17:32, half marathon was 1:22:47 (both during the month before the marathon).

The marathon was 2:56:03, run mostly solo, very conservatively (1:28:30 at the half). A comfortable effort the entire distance.

The keys for me, though, were a few bigger weeks (five of the twenty weeks were over 50 miles, including one over 60), and long runs. I had seven runs of 18 or more miles, including a 23-miler in 3:15.

The Daniels plan has only four runs of 2+ hours in 16 weeks. That would have me feeling very unprepared.

Possible? Yes. As a poster above said, it's "definitely doable." However, do a quick perusal on the site for similar threads started and see how many of them turned out successful. Most don't even bother returning to update their thread, a fairly dependable sign that it ended poorly. I would pay little-to-no attention to T Funke's anecdotal experience. That is a big exception to the norm. I would also say Allen1959's results is also an exception to the norm for most posters who start threads on here with a sub3 goal. However, you can find his responses on past threads that provide more context and helpful advice. If I recall correctly, that sub3 he referenced was not his first marathon.

mileage-vs-speed wrote:

I don't think I would mind not making sub3, although the idea of a painful positive split doesn't seem very appealing. I'm mostly ticking the box of my first marathon, will probably spend lots more time and effort on the shorter distances before returning to it.

If this is the case, then I would go out at 3:05 pace and look for a negative split to create a positive first experience. Those who say mileage is overemphasized here might be partly right. However, for someone with your profile (natural talent, new to running, decreasing equivalent performances as the distance grows) I would say mileage is by far the biggest factor.

Loving all the replies, I think most everyone here agrees that stacking on the miles will be needed for the sub3. This brings me to the practical concern of implementing that in the current phase of the programme. The weeks proceeding, as per the plan, are {40, 36, 36, 40, 40, 36, 36, 36} in mileage, which includes all weeks except for the actual week of the marathon where I think I would just follow the recommended taper. I would want to allow myself to tentatively approach the higher mileage, so am considering an adaptation to {45, 40, 45, 50, 50, 55, 45, 50}. Is it sensible to have peak mileage be about a month out from the marathon? Would you guys structure this any differently or stack on even more miles?

Newmanium wrote:

I would also say Allen1959's results is also an exception to the norm for most posters who start threads on here with a sub3 goal. ... If I recall correctly, that sub3 he referenced was not his first marathon.

Yes, that is important to note. Experience at the distance can be a big factor. That 2:56 was, I think, my 22nd marathon, but my only sub-3 in more than 20 years. And during those two decades, there were many marathons with "painful positive splits," as the OP phrased it!

Anyway, your advice and observations are spot-on. Still, with some higher-mileage weeks and more long runs, the OP certainly has the talent for sub-3, and he has enough time between now and April to make it happen. Especially at age 22.

Regarding his cross-training, a couple hours of bicycling can substantially contribute to fitness, particularly for low-mileage runners.

In my late 50s, I ran only two days a week and bicycled 2-3 hours a week (two rides). That approach netted a 3:25 marathon, which "age graded" to "2:52 equivalent." Again, though, I scheduled adequate long runs, even if they were 80% of my weekly mileage!

mileage-vs-speed wrote:

I would want to allow myself to tentatively approach the higher mileage, so am considering an adaptation to {45, 40, 45, 50, 50, 55, 45, 50}.

Looks perfect to me. And I think it best to add most of those "extra" miles to the easy long runs. Best wishes!

Just one more thought regarding previous marathon experience. Like you, I was 22 when I ran my first marathon, and, like you, I was running very low mileage.

But I had no idea what pace to attempt, nor anyone to advise me. Back then there were few resources available (or at least of which I was aware). No comparative calculators, no VDOT tables.

So I naively started the marathon WAY too conservatively.

Guessing 3:30 as "appropriate," I ran an even pace to the half (1:45), then feeling much more confident (and somewhat bored), I increased the pace. The second half pretty much was an acceleration run, finishing at 6:00/mile, for a 3:15 finish. That left me in all kinds of hurt ... cramping so badly I couldn't walk or even stand for a long while.

Five weeks later, I had a much better sense of the distance, and ran another marathon -- in 2:52. Besides the experience, once recovered, I think the previous 26-mile effort contributed a nice fitness boost as well.

Ah, to be 22! Enjoy it.

mileage-vs-speed wrote:

Hey all, thanks for all the additional input.

T Funke I'm in the Netherlands so to get to ~1000 feet of elevation the best I could manage are bridge repeats, which I've enjoyed doing a bit but since the highest bridge is a highway I feel the exhaust fumes might make them unhealthy. 2Q does have midweek long runs with some quality included, this might cover the same base you experienced beneficial to your marathon. What was your longest run when running 2:49 off of low mileage? Did you have high lifetime mileage?

I ran 20 miles three and four weeks back from the race. And I guess the other thing I did differently was I ran these pretty much at my race pace. I'd been running a few years, done a few halves but only ran 1,000 miles the year before, so not huge mileage. Just looking at my log now, the year before I ran 2:59 off two preceding 155 mile months and the 2:49 the next year off two 160s so really no difference, only the introduction of these hill runs.

It's a really interesting subject but the thing is most people on here are post 5k school / college runners so they have that very rigid idea around mileage (which don't get me wrong at pro level can't be dismissed) that it's the only way but I ran that lower mileage running hard on hills, hard on long runs and also on weekly 5ks. If you have a good background fitness level and don't need to run huge mileage to keep weight off then I think you can gain the psychological hardness required to maintain your pace / "keep going" through intensity rather than slugging.

mileage-vs-speed wrote:

Would it be sensible to pace the first half of the goal M at 1:32 and see how the endurance holds up from there to either maintain or accelerate?

YES! As someone else said, with your speed and youth, you will feel great at the beginning. 6:50 will feel absurdly slow. Tick off miles as long as you can at 6:50 (never faster) and if you're good at mile 22, pick it up a little.

Wildcard: fuel. Are you used to eating during runs? Not just sport drink, but Gu or something similar. Start feeding early and keep shoveling it in. Maybe a Gu every 3 miles - 800 calories during the race.

Allen - What a story on that first marathon, makes you realise that we're really spoiled with information these days - from GPS watches to HRMs to Lets Run (although that one might often fall under misinformation). I'm not sure if I'll implement the 26.2 mile progression run as part of my training though.

T Funke 2018 for me was 1100 miles - so not too dissimilar from where you were. 20 miles at race pace seems crazy to me - don't those prohibit harder running in the week following as you would need at least a week to recover from such an effort?

Grenio - Fuel indeed! I raced the Amsterdam half past October aiming for a sub 85 (which I was told is prerequisite for a sub3 attempt - so I dutifully obliged). At about ~15k I was on pace at 3:56/km (6:20/mi) but was feeling as if I was fading. At the aid stations I grabbed an isostar gel thingy they were handing out thinking that might carry me over to the finish. Fast forward to 17k and I was standing dead still with stomach cramps, finishing with a painful crawl to 1:28:xx. Newbie mistake of doing something new on race day - having a gel which I never really had before. In training I've tried a different fruit mix gel which my stomach seems to endure much better and which I plan to take along with the Marathon. However, your gel-pace seems crazy to me, as I was only really planning on taking 4/5-ish for the Marathon. Wouldn't 8/9 gels exceed the amount of carbohydrate your body can take in over 2.99 hours? Do you train with taking the gels at an equal pace so as to test/train the stomach?