Like yeah, I get that some dudes are going to get all James Bond digging tunnels or flying drones with drugs over the wall, but won't it stop the average illegal (ahem, "undocumented", these are mostly just guys who left their passports at home by mistake) immigrant from busting in?
Arguing that it won't is like arguing that it's pointless to lock your door because someone could use an advanced lock picking set or attack it with a battering ram. Yeah that's true but it keeps 99% of the riff raff at bay, so it's effective, especially when combined with other security measures like an alarm.
But I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
Can someone explain why the wall, or steel barrier, won't work?
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No one is arguing that a wall will or will not work. This is about defeating Trump in 2020.
Those opposed to him just don’t want to give him the win. -
More than half of what you call illegal immigration comes from people overstaying legal visas. They mostly fly in.
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So you're saying we need an enforcement program to kick those people out, in addition to the aforementioned wall/steel barrier? Sign me up!
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Come on!!! wrote:
More than half of what you call illegal immigration comes from people overstaying legal visas. They mostly fly in.
Exactly this^.
Plus, you know , there is thing called a ladder. These folks can build tunnels and stuff already. You think they cant go to home depot and put up a step stool or a scaffold? -
Pierre Douton wrote:
Like yeah, I get that some dudes are going to get all James Bond digging tunnels or flying drones with drugs over the wall, but won't it stop the average illegal (ahem, "undocumented", these are mostly just guys who left their passports at home by mistake) immigrant from busting in?
Arguing that it won't is like arguing that it's pointless to lock your door because someone could use an advanced lock picking set or attack it with a battering ram. Yeah that's true but it keeps 99% of the riff raff at bay, so it's effective, especially when combined with other security measures like an alarm.
But I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
1) Your second paragraph is bunk. If you want to keep illegals out, you put an end to the reason they come here illegally...to get work. Make fines enormous and impose prison sentences for people who hire illegal workers. Right now it is a slap on the wrist if you are caught hiring an illegal worker. Make the first instance $500,000 fine or hell even a million dollar fine and prison for 5 years. That will put a stop to it. Your produce will cost more, but I'm fine with that.
2) You can not put a border wall along the entire southern border, so since you can't do that, and even Trump now agrees that that is not feasible, what about those who just want to rough it and cross where there is no border wall?
3) The vast majority of illegal people in this country came in on Visas and overstayed.
4) Others come in illegal through legal ports of entry.
5) What if you did close off the entire southern border? Well, they come in by boat on the coasts then or through the northern border.
6) A southern border wall that Trump wants (and let's not forget he has continually lied that it is already being built) is ONLY a symbol of keeping brown people out.
7) Ever heard of a ladder?
8) Let's also not forget that Trump didn't even want to allow people to make a case for amnesty. That is not what America is all about.
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/06/15/461342F300000578-0-image-a-72_1509981029298.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GIYHuMSvqoM/maxresdefault.jpg
http://creativetimereports.org/files/2016/03/inlineStephen_Stapleton-Culture_Runners_Tijuana-1003-L.jpg -
Many reasons. First off, an opaque wall blocking all vision to the other side is not a good thing, what makes the current fencing good is that border patrol can at least see when someone is trying to get through (they literally said this themselves). Most illegal immigrants at this point didn't cross the border illegally, they crossed legally and overstayed their visas. The ones that the wall is trying to keep out (organized criminals) are the ones that will be doing things like building tunnels or finding alternate routes, the wall would mainly keep out normal people that are just looking for work to support their families. That right there is the biggest reason the wall won't do much, but that's not even why it shouldn't exist. $5 billion is barely a down payment on this thing, the real cost is more like $25-$70 billion, and that's just for materials and construction, not to mention all the legal battles that will ensue over property rights, protection of natural resources and landmarks, etc. Then you have to massively increase funding for the border patrol (which we already just did) and you're looking at $100 billion+ in total cost. Then you have to maintain the wall and repair it, and so it goes on and on. Basically, it's an exceedingly expensive measure with questionable morality that doesn't even fulfill its true purpose, keeping criminals out of the US.
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well because the majority of illegal immigrants and illegal drugs aren't entering through areas that the wall will block. Most are just coming through legal and entry points, airports, and by sea. The wall is an extraordinary expense that that won't solve the problem. It might not even be a problem worth solving. The money could be better spent elsewhere.
You really think cartels with more money than some state governments aren't going to find a way to meet the demand for drugs in the US? There are already well-developed channles for moving large amount of drugs into country that wouldn't be affected by the wall.
It's clear it's just a political stunt/ego boost. signal to the base of the president. I really don't think he gives a flying fk if it prevents any drugs at all from entering the country. -
Mr. Gobachev wrote:
No one is arguing that a wall will or will not work. This is about defeating Trump in 2020.
Those opposed to him just don’t want to give him the win.
Nah...it's about defeating him on this stupid wall. It's a waste of money, it won't do what he says it will do, and we can't reward him for taking this extraordinary step of closing the government to try to get what he wants. Beyond the pale.
If Pelosi allows him his wall, he will use the same tactic again to get something else he wants. Can't do business with a child who is behaving as a child. -
Flagpole, you are making a lot of the James Bond style arguments I discredited above. Let's not have the perfect be the enemy of the good here. Surely you have locks on your doors at home. The wall will stop at least some illegal immigration by making it more difficult. Not everyone is going to rent a 50 foot ladder or take a boat instead. Some will give up.
Regarding point 8, what is America about? To me, it's a melting pot of skilled, legal immigrants who are willing to work hard. It doesn't mean we need to allow every tribesman who's been living in a mud hut or drug infested warzone into our country. If their lives are so bad outside America, is it because they lack some magic dirt present only in our country? Or is it, perhaps, because they are simply uneducated, of poor character, and not a good fit?
And I strongly agree with your Point #2. We need a comprehensive approach including a wall/steel barrier and punishment for business owners who hire illegal workers. -
Pierre Douton wrote:
So you're saying we need an enforcement program to kick those people out, in addition to the aforementioned wall/steel barrier? Sign me up!
i'm saying the immigrants are not really a problem. There's little evidence that illegal immigration is even a detriment to our country. Why not address issues that are known problems first? -
What is morally questionable about a sovereign nation securing and defending its borders against foreign invasion? That is a fundamental right of any country.
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Both sides want to secure the border but the dispute is how best to do it. The Democrats want some combination of barriers, technology and increased border patrol. Trump sees the best solution to be his wall. The barriers that Democrats are agreeable to, cost less than $5M per mile while Trump's would cost $24M per mile. I have yet to see a cost benefit analysis comparing the two options.
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Pierre Douton wrote:
Flagpole, you are making a lot of the James Bond style arguments I discredited above. Let's not have the perfect be the enemy of the good here. Surely you have locks on your doors at home. The wall will stop at least some illegal immigration by making it more difficult. Not everyone is going to rent a 50 foot ladder or take a boat instead. Some will give up.
Regarding point 8, what is America about? To me, it's a melting pot of skilled, legal immigrants who are willing to work hard. It doesn't mean we need to allow every tribesman who's been living in a mud hut or drug infested warzone into our country. If their lives are so bad outside America, is it because they lack some magic dirt present only in our country? Or is it, perhaps, because they are simply uneducated, of poor character, and not a good fit?
And I strongly agree with your Point #2. We need a comprehensive approach including a wall/steel barrier and punishment for business owners who hire illegal workers.
...an if we dropped you pathetic trolling ass into a Brazillian indentured mining camp and you somehow didn't use your skills to rise to the top of society like cream.....would it be because you forgot your magic dust? -
If US Special Forces can't breach it, neither will the drug cartels. And this from the LA Times, a left-leaning newspaper.
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-border-wall-test-20180119-story.html -
How could it not be detrimental? I thought you progressives used to be for unions, workers rights, and the 40 hour week? Illegal workers often make less than the minimum wage or work in substandard, illegal conditions. That unfair competition hurts every working-class citizen, and only serves to enrich big business owners and upper class folks who hire illegal household help.
And it's certainly detrimental in terms of demographics. If these people are coming from war-torn, violent places, with low education levels, what type of kids are they going to raise here? -
Pierre Douton wrote:
What is morally questionable about a sovereign nation securing and defending its borders against foreign invasion? That is a fundamental right of any country.
America has invaded more countries than any other during most people's lifetimes.....yet we are the ones building a wall? -
well, for one thing wrote:
Pierre Douton wrote:
What is morally questionable about a sovereign nation securing and defending its borders against foreign invasion? That is a fundamental right of any country.
America has invaded more countries than any other during most people's lifetimes.....yet we are the ones building a wall?
Non Sequitur -
Pierre Douton wrote:
How could it not be detrimental? I thought you progressives used to be for unions, workers rights, and the 40 hour week? Illegal workers often make less than the minimum wage or work in substandard, illegal conditions. That unfair competition hurts every working-class citizen, and only serves to enrich big business owners and upper class folks who hire illegal household help.
And it's certainly detrimental in terms of demographics. If these people are coming from war-torn, violent places, with low education levels, what type of kids are they going to raise here?
Not a progressive, would never vote democrat in my life.....i just happen to be anti-moran.
Most immigrant kids i know turned out much better than you. -
Why won't it work? Because most people, contrary to what hear and read, simply want to create and enjoy their lives. No where can have out of control mass migration but migration in general can be managed successfully, and to everyone's benefit and at not only no cost but at a profit. Migration benefits everyone. The only rule is: Do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't violate the rights of others. So the wall is touted as protecting "us" but it is in fact hurting us. In that sense it will not, because it can not, work. I am not left or right. I just want the best for myself, my family, friends and neighbors everywhere.
