His school can’t accomplish this. Needs a coach and a team to train with at least over the summer. Any ideas?
I’d pay for the coach and the training partners.
His school can’t accomplish this. Needs a coach and a team to train with at least over the summer. Any ideas?
I’d pay for the coach and the training partners.
I know this is a troll but a 4:10 mile is about a 14:30 5k.
Look up Alberto Salazar. His push up and altitude routine is guaranteed to work.
I’m Not a troll . I agree with your 410 is equivalent to 1430 assessment. Even mid D1 schools say 410 to be recruited and I know those high school milers aren’t doing 1430. Either way, I imagine that this is a common problem without a great solution: there’s a kid who’s committed, doing 60 mile weeks on his own, not a great training squad or support around, ran 449 freshman mile, low 17’s Xc off 30 mile weeks. I know 410 is tough but he’s willing to work the next 2.5 years to get close. What are his options? Other schools won’t train him. I’ve found that Finding a coach is easier than finding training partners.
In other words there must be a way to train a committed talented kid who doesn’t have the right situation. Especially if we can pay. I just can’t find it.
If you are being serious, look up tinman and go on his forum.
Where do you live?
Go on your state's athletic federation site, there should be a list of clubs somewhere, look at their websites...
Most "coaches" will just write you a schedule. You and your kid will learn little of the why or the how. If you're moderately intelligent you should read all the recommended books on training and then some.
Look up Ingebrigtsen. Watch some of their reality TV show. Their dad knew nothing. Now they are winning at life.
It's pretty easy to get to 50-60 miles a week. It doesn't take rocket science. Long runs, crusie intervals, tempos, fartleks, easy days, etc.
Take extensive notes on what worked. Figure out the best warm up and taper for your kid. That stuff can make a big difference. Everyone is a bit different with those things and a good atheletes have to know how to do it on their own and listen to their body.
Aging and consistent work will put him at 4:30 pretty easy in a year.
By then maybe you'll have learned the ins and outs. after that you can think about paying someone to write you a schedule that you'll likely tweak anyway.
Find the best XC team in your area and have your son transfer there. It might require you to move. OR, just let him progress normally and he should be sub 16 by junior/senior year (4:10 is a bit of a longshot unless he isn’t doing any speedwork at all). I had similar times freshman year and crushed the 16 minute barrier my senior year.
I agree with the training advice. I was a four flat collegiate and sub 16 high schooler, but a lot of that I felt was due to a good group to train with. The books make sense. It’s rasy to find training advice, but hard to find a group to push each other. I was hoping there was a summer camp longer than a week. Those camps teach a little, bit they are not meant to get someone in shape for the season. Something like 8-10 weeks in the summer would be better. Or hire someone to train with him. We are next to a D 1 university, but I doubt they’ll let him hang around.
I'd be happy to talk to you about coaching and progression from talented HS runner to D1 level athlete.
My background: former D1 runner, and as a post-collegiate was self-coached to a Olypmic Trials qualifier in the marathon.
Over the past 3 years I advised a highschooler who is now a freshman on a half athletic scholarship for D1, and can provide that reference if desired.
If you're interested, contacted me at
, and we can go from there.
Coach Tom Schwartz
runfastcoach.com
He helped me with my team for a couple of years
He has a ton of knowledge and is a nice person who won't mince words
This is probably the best advice. This is what most parents do when they want their kid to get a scholarship in another sport like football or music. Find a school/coach that has consistently had runners go to the state meet and run fast times and get scholarship offers in previous years. You may need to move to do this.
Depending on your runner's experiences and prs including 5k, mile, 2mile or 800m, I think your odds of getting him to run sub 16 5k are very high. Most people would testify that there are a lot of high schoolers who are sub 16 5k but getting a 4:10 miler in high school is a different story.
If you can't find someone decent to train with him, I would suggest you make him a solid training plan from now throughout the summer and hopefully he should be able to run sub 16 by the end of his cross season.
Keys:
injury-free
mileage
consistency
strength
speed
=> sub 16!
Op here.. wrote:
I’m Not a troll . I agree with your 410 is equivalent to 1430 assessment. Even mid D1 schools say 410 to be recruited and I know those high school milers aren’t doing 1430. Either way, I imagine that this is a common problem without a great solution: there’s a kid who’s committed, doing 60 mile weeks on his own, not a great training squad or support around, ran 449 freshman mile, low 17’s Xc off 30 mile weeks. I know 410 is tough but he’s willing to work the next 2.5 years to get close. What are his options? Other schools won’t train him. I’ve found that Finding a coach is easier than finding training partners.
In other words there must be a way to train a committed talented kid who doesn’t have the right situation. Especially if we can pay. I just can’t find it.
If your son can go from 4:49 to 4:10, who gives a sh&t about his XC results. The person who holds my high school record in the mile, a 4:08.xx high school one mile runner, ran 440 yard relay legs in 51.xx or 52.xx. My college sub-4 minute 1500m teammates were all sub-1:53 800m runners. One's Marathon ceiling is based on a ratio of one's 1500m PB. The Bill Rodgers/Dick Beardsley types most likely raced Marathon 32.5 times their 1500m PB. Rod Dixon raced Marathon 36 times his 1500m PB. Most race Marathon 33 to 35 times one's PB. Your son's 400m PB is very important to know.
4:49 to 4:10 wrote:
If your son can go from 4:49 to 4:10, who gives a sh&t about his XC results. The person who holds my high school record in the mile, a 4:08.xx high school one mile runner, ran 440 yard relay legs in 51.xx or 52.xx. My college sub-4 minute 1500m teammates were all sub-1:53 800m runners. One's Marathon ceiling is based on a ratio of one's 1500m PB. The Bill Rodgers/Dick Beardsley types most likely raced Marathon 32.5 times their 1500m PB. Rod Dixon raced Marathon 36 times his 1500m PB. Most race Marathon 33 to 35 times one's PB. Your son's 400m PB is very important to know.
very true. if this kid is having trouble breaking 60 right now as a sophomore, he will probably never run 4:10. but if he is running under 55, there may be a chance.
a 4:10 mile is consecutive 62s, if he can't run at least sub-2 for 800m by junior year, re-evaluate the goal.
Go back in time and give the kid better genetics.
Cant find it on google wrote:
His school can’t accomplish this. Needs a coach and a team to train with at least over the summer. Any ideas?
I’d pay for the coach and the training partners.
I agree with a poster above, Tinman is your man - seems like a great coach from the results he's getting from athletes across the board.
There’s some good advice on their thread, some of my advice will be repeat of previous advice, but I’m trying to give a total picture.
1) Don’t worry if your son has slow foot speed as a freshman. I was a late bloomer. I ran 5:20 as a freshman and I don’t think I could break 65 in the 400. By my senior year I ran 4:28 and 55 (nothing spectacular, but a Marjorie improvement). In college I was converted to an 800m runner and I could break 50 seconds I’m the 400 as a Junior. I completely transformed as an runner because my training completely changed. I put on 10lbs of muscle and looked like a completely different person. My mile time stayed the same (4:20 at that point in college), but I took close to 10 seconds off my 800 and 5-6 seconds off my HS 400m PR. Point is, a HS freshman Male distance runner probably isn’t very explosive YET and footspeed is easy to develop in the off-season... if that’s something he needs. Don’t fear that’s he’s not fast at 15. He will get faster. Especially if you train him for it. There’s a balance to keeping up his endurance training while developing speed. But it’s not a crazy thought to train him like a 400-800 runner between XC and track, and then pick the endurance training back up once the season starts. He might not set the world on fire in the 3200 that’s season, but long term it might be beneficial. I don’t know your son, so I don’t know if this is what he needs. Which leads to my next point.
2) Try to find a good local coach. Online coaches work also, but you need someone to watch you son run. They need to see his stride, and cadence. They need to see if his shoulders are tight when he runs or if he drops his arms. They need to develop a bond with your son. There are a lot of reasons that an average local coach is better than an online coach, especially at a young age because your son needs to learn the sport. Not just be told what to do, which is what online coaching primarily involves.
3) Switching schools is also something to seriously consider. Good programs have good coaches and good culture. Ask around as to which local HS’s recruit. I don’t know the rules where you live, but most places I’ve lived have allowed some sort of recruiting. If a school provides financial aid to track athletes, then they likely have a coach on staff that can help your son improve. The overall cost of private school might even cost less than hiring a private coach or moving your homestead. A good XC program that experiences consistent success likely has a year round training program. And if it’s a really good school, then coach probably individualizes training for each athlete. This is nothing against public schools (I went to public school). But I’ve noticed a trend of private schools poaching public school runners. So it could be a quick fix.
4) Help your son by helping yourself. It sounds like you understand the sport more than most parents. So you’re already a great tool for your son to use. It might help if you did some research into coaching and training. You likely know the basics, so maybe a hire level understanding would be beneficial. The Daniels Formula is a good starter book for training. The Science of Running by Steve Magness is a great book if you want an in depth understanding. It reads like a textbook though, so be prepare to spend a month reading 250-300 pages. Steve Magness also has a great podcast called “Beyond Coach - Magness and Marcus”. The podcast great for beginner coaches. It doesn’t so much talk about training, but more of communicative and psychological aspects of coaching. It might be worth a listen. You could possibly be you sons greatest asset.
Hope this kinda helps. It would be great for you to keep this thread a live so we can see how your son progresses.
Which is it though? Sub 16 5k is like 3-4 months of work for a reasonable talented kid with some decent training and recovery.
4:10 mile could be multiple years worth of work and may just be unobtainable genetically.
Commitment and dedication doesn't require paying anyone. If the kid really wants it then he will simply work for it. 99% of achievements in life come from you pushing yourself. Not someone pushing you.
El Gs coach famously said he usually had to hold El G back, rather than motivate him.