Bikila vs Kipchoge: Late 80s tech, who wins?

Interesting. Very debatable whether pre-Vaporfly Rupp would have got close in 1964.

Easy answer: Bikila!!!

No one was in his class in 1960 or 1964

Kipchoge has many close rivals.

xD It's obviously Kipchoge, assuming that the technology they wear is the only difference and not training. Vaporflies don't take 10 minutes off your marathon time

"the available technology, and knowledge in terms of nutrition and training methodology of the time."

I really wish people would take the time to read the original post.

Bikila in a landslide!

Kipchoge and it's not even close.

kipchoge by 2 miles

Sorry but any talk of Kipchoge winning easily is utter bollocks.

The World Record of the late 80s was Dinsamo's 2:06:50. I was going to say taking Kipchoge out of his 4%s and dumping him in that era would have him ~ 2:06:xx, and given that WR stood for over a decade, that seems a decent ballpark figure.

Coming the other way, Bikila's 1964 2:12 in a ridiculous pair of puma flats would gain A LOT ran in the late 80s. Taking him into 2:08 seems a fairly conservative but acceptable figure for this discussion. That would put Kipchoge 2 mins up...

BUT the question also included training and nutrition of the time, which surely hugely favours Kipchoge. Kipchoge was World 5000m champ at 19, Bikila didn't even start running until he was 24! Add to that the nutrition angle and the "supplements" that Kipchoge has access to. Give them to Bikila, or remove them from Kipchoge, in the 80s and that 2 minutes has gone.

You're a moran if you think kipchoge's shoes now compared to shoes in the 80s would take him from 2:01 to 2:06. He would certainly be faster.

but, training is a different question. My guess is kipchoge would still be close to as good as he is now. His training is complex or complicated.

Ha ha, utter bollocks! Kipchoge's shoes now take him from a 2:04-2:05 runner pre 2016!! So if you've got him anywhere faster than 2:05-2:06 AT BEST (and still smashing that era's WR!) in the late 80s than your mind has clearly gone...

Vaporfly Asterisk wrote:

Abebe Bikila won the 1960 Olympic Marathon Barefooted in 2:15:16 and came back four years later to win again breaking the World Record in 2:12:11.

54 years later, wearing the controversial spring loaded Nike Vaporflys, Eliud Kipchoge breaks the World Record running 2:01:39. 10 mins 32 seconds faster than Bikila's time but separated by a huge chasm in terms of the both the available technology, and knowledge in terms of nutrition and training methodology of the time.

Splitting the time difference between Bikila's landmark first barefoot Olympic triumph and Kipchoge's epic World Record, if the two had been born at the same time and reach their peaks in the late 1980s, who would win, wearing what footwear, and in what time?

Posters on LR constantly talk about nutrition, but I ran during the '70s and never, ever, did I hear about about appropriate nutrition for runners. I had the opportunity to meet and run with John Walker and he said that besides drinking beer, his diet consisted of eating whatever was put in front of him.

It's hard to compare Bikila and Kipchoge. Bikila dominated, but that was before guys that could be world-class on the track ran the marathon.

Oh, James007 wrote:

"the available technology, and knowledge in terms of nutrition and training methodology of the time."

I really wish people would take the time to read the original post.

Bikila in a landslide!

I really do not know how you can compare Kipchoge to Bikila.

In Bikila's day there was almost nothing written about running.

You only ran a marathon if you had a chance to win.

Now everyone and their sister runs the marathon.

You tryin'a tellme Bikila was not a better natural talent?

What chu' smokiin?

*In 1958 the world record was 2:15.17 by Sergei Popov of USSR

*October 1960 the world record was broken by the barefooted Ethiopian Abebe Bikila in 2:15:16.2

*More than 2 years later the WR was unofficially broken by Toru Terasawa of Japan

by less than a second @ 2:15:15.8 February 1963.

*Then Leonard "Buddy" Edelen of the USA broke the record with a 2:14:28.0 during June 1963.

*Basil Heatly of UK held the record with 2:13:55 in June 1964

*Abebe Bikila won for the second time in the Olympics with a world record of 2:12:00 in September 1964

*It took the world almost 2 years to break that record by 11 seconds with Morio Shigetnatsu

of Japan getting a 2:12:00 during June of 1965.

*Finally Derek Clayton of Australia started getting solo marathon wins and had a 2:09:36 in December of 1967.

William Peyton wrote:

Easy answer: Bikila!!!

No one was in his class in 1960 or 1964

Kipchoge has many close rivals.

Who?

Hasn’t he won like 8 marathons in a row?

Did you know that the NYC Marathon was not even STARTED until 1976?

In 1976 there were around 25,000 total marathon finishers in the USA.

In 1980 that total was 144,000 in America.

That number rose every 4 years until 2014 when 550,000 people finished a marathon.

Do you think it's possible that hospitals, clinics, coaches, trainers, scientists and runners learned

anything during that time. Did facilities, equipment, strategies, etc. change

Yes, A lot.

Bikila 2:04 Kipchoge 2:06 in 1980.

Macdaddy wrote:

William Peyton wrote:

Easy answer: Bikila!!!

No one was in his class in 1960 or 1964

Kipchoge has many close rivals.

Who?

Hasn’t he won like 8 marathons in a row?

When were you born boy?

I don't know if anyone will have already seen this but I came across this cinematic gold re Bikila in Tokyo '64 on the YouTube:-

https://youtu.be/OxOdp8ka25U?t=524

Unbelievable portrait of an athlete, beautifully shot...

* Seems to be blocked for embedded viewing here but if you watch the close up still at ~ 9mins it's incredible.

Oh, James007 wrote:

"the available technology, and knowledge in terms of nutrition and training methodology of the time."

I really wish people would take the time to read the original post.

Bikila in a landslide!

Technology as far as shoes, even clothing- compression material is so much more comfortable and in the breaking 2 race it was designed to help them recover.

Nutrition- so much more advanced now. I remember we used to take salt tablets before a run and eat steak and eggs the morning of an afternoon race.

What was Shorter's replacement fluid during marathons? Flat cola or something like that?

“Training knowledge” isn’t that different between the late 80s and today in truly practical terms. The best we’re running a lot of miles and a lot of quality. They took carbs in races. They were full time pros, getting massage and a lot of sleep. The right balance of everything is still as much an art as a science, and there’s no consensus on the best approach. Kipchoge could have been similarly fast in the late 80s.

The bigger questions are:

1) Would Kipchoge be as fast if he didn’t HAVE to be as fast? That’s more about psychology than tech and science. You base your goals on what people around you are doing. Or at least most people do. Kipchoge seems to have the unique ability to believe he can do things that nobody has yet come close to doing. I say Kipchoge in the late 80s has the WR by multiple minutes!

2) How fast would Bikila have been? We don’t really have that much knowledge about his training, so it’s a bigger unknown. On the other hand, 2:12 is so, so far from Kipchoge, that it still seems really unlikely that he could get there. Maybe he’s a 2:06 guy. Maybe. Statistically, it’s less likely that the most talented people were getting discovered back then.

Ha ha, nice video - couldn't help but notice the beautiful heal striking by the famed barefoot runner! How exactly did that work?!