that is the impression most letsrun posters seem to convey? I don't believe it, but it seems that is the consensus including letsrun's leaders. Last week another African was busted for drugs, received many posts on the message boards, yet no front page coverage? Why do the Africans to continue to get a pass? Yes there is some coverage, but usually passive, poorly covered, or not covered at all........personally I don't believe any of these marathon records or incredible times to be clean. NONE
Only ones I have confidence in being 100% clean is the 800m world record. I'm about 60% sure the 5000m and 10000m records are clean. I'm about 50% sure the current marathon world record is clean.
Which one isn't dirty? wrote:
Only ones I have confidence in being 100% clean is the 800m world record. I'm about 60% sure the 5000m and 10000m records are clean. I'm about 50% sure the current marathon world record is clean.
I here this a lot from letsrun posters. And you say you're 100% confident that the record is clean...why?
No T&F records are clean. Wake up.
To be the best of the best, in a sport where at least half of the athletes are drug cheats, only works with extremely superior talent, training, and a good response to pharmaceuticals.
The 800? LOL. 1:41 and 1:53 in the 80s...
Inquiring minds want to know wrote:
Which one isn't dirty? wrote:
Only ones I have confidence in being 100% clean is the 800m world record. I'm about 60% sure the 5000m and 10000m records are clean. I'm about 50% sure the current marathon world record is clean.
I here this a lot from letsrun posters. And you say you're 100% confident that the record is clean...why?
I would genuinely be upset if Rudisha turned out to be dirty. I would say it's 50/50 though. There were three of the top 21 800m Kenyan runners from 2017 busted this year, and that's not including Ferguson Rotich, who sent home from Rio in disgrace, and who was the training partner of Bett and had the same coach (who had already had a juinor athlete die of sudden causes at 20 after serving an EPO suspension).
To have 100% confidence in Rudisha is naieve in the extreme, and that's sad that his legacy is being tainted in this way (if he is clean).
casual obsever wrote:
No T&F records are clean. Wake up.
To be the best of the best, in a sport where at least half of the athletes are drug cheats, only works with extremely superior talent, training, and a good response to pharmaceuticals.
The 800? LOL. 1:41 and 1:53 in the 80s...
I agree with a lot you say and I've never said that only Africans cheat etc, but you keep repeating that 50% claim on the basis of the Pan Arab Games survey. A similar survey at the World Championships produced a much lower figure. If both surveys are accurate, and if the Arab Games were representative of African athletes as a whole, simple maths leads to the conclusion that actually, quite a small percentage of non-Africans are doping.
Even if you were correct, when was the last time a non-African born set a running (or sprinting, lol) record? In this millenium, I remember only a certain lady with extremely suspicious blood values, during the EPO era.
But in fact, the drug cheats numbers were 43.6% at World's (some 1800 athletes) and 57.1% at PAN - not such a huge difference. Both likely underestimated, according to the authors.
And based on both suspicious blood values, and athletes caught, the Africans are somewhere in the middle, far ahead of us, way behind the Russians.
From the Sunday Times 2015 leak, we have a list of blood-doping suspects by country. There, the "leaders" were Russia, Ukraine, Turkey, Greece, Morocco and Bulgaria, with a percentage from 30 - 22%; twice as high as Kenya's 11%, which was on par with the EU countries Holland and Spain. Overall average was 15%. For comparison, UK and USA had 4% and 5%, respectively.
And again, one has to dope quite brutally to crash through the generous borders of the ABP. E.g., Ashenden showed that one can safely increase Hct by 10 - 15%, and Poistogova for example never got flagged despite her hard-core EPO usage. That implies that the real percentages are substantially higher than for example the 30% for Russia, 11% for Kenya, or 5% for USA.
Plus, that list neither includes HGH nor testo nor certain peptides.
I think they all are suspect. To be honest I have no idea who the current mile, 5000m, 10,000m etc. record holder is as I have no confidence that they are clean. Why get all excited about an individual only to have your bubble burst if they test positive? I would say that if you took the top ten list for each distance then it is likely that at least one of the athletes in the top ten is clean but I have no idea which one. And it is pointless to try to speculate.
I also believe that the percentage of dopers is higher in countries that have less effective testing than in the West. But also that the West has more sophisticated ways of cheating, micro dosing TUE abuse etc. Hence my tendency to take issue with people who claim they are all dirty but we are all clean. It's across the board, just easier in some places than others.
I lost my innocence during the time before and after the LA Olympics. At that point I realized that cheating was rampant in the sport and not just the Soviet Block. At the time I actively followed the achievements of Coe, Ovett, Cram, Foster, Bedford, Moorecroft etc. but I came to realize that if I believed everyone of them was clean I was deluding myself.
Expect what and when?
Coevett wrote:
Inquiring minds want to know wrote:
I here this a lot from letsrun posters. And you say you're 100% confident that the record is clean...why?
I would genuinely be upset if Rudisha turned out to be dirty. I would say it's 50/50 though. There were three of the top 21 800m Kenyan runners from 2017 busted this year, and that's not including Ferguson Rotich, who sent home from Rio in disgrace, and who was the training partner of Bett and had the same coach (who had already had a juinor athlete die of sudden causes at 20 after serving an EPO suspension).
To have 100% confidence in Rudisha is naieve in the extreme, and that's sad that his legacy is being tainted in this way (if he is clean).
If Ferguson Rotich was "sent home from Rio in disgrace"...how in the heck did he finish 5th in the final running a SB of 1:43.55? ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_at_the_2016_Summer_Olympics_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_800_metresfindoutsoonor wrote:
that is the impression most letsrun posters seem to convey? I don't believe it, but it seems that is the consensus including letsrun's leaders. Last week another African was busted for drugs, received many posts on the message boards, yet no front page coverage? Why do the Africans to continue to get a pass? Yes there is some coverage, but usually passive, poorly covered, or not covered at all........personally I don't believe any of these marathon records or incredible times to be clean. NONE
Social engineering. To successfully promote multi-culturalism, a certain targeted segment of the world's population is required to be seen in a certain way such that the target audience believes they are superior in some way, virtuous, or want to be like them, want to live next to them, or even better, want to live with them...In the end causing the targeted audience to be willing members for mass migration, allowing their nations and heritage to be destroyed from within.
All large sports are affected and included in this engineering project.
Oh yea, I forgot that Ferguson somehow managed to get off the hook.
Can't imagine what you guys would be saying if...
a UK athletics coach at Rio was sent home in disgrace for presenting his own urine sample as that of one of the top British 800m runners.
The manager of the UK Rio team had been caught in a sting operation offering journalists tip offs on anti-doping tests, and was under investigation for corruption and for running a doping ring.
The 800m British runner's actual coach was the coach of another UK 800m runner who fails a test, and the two runners were training partners. Turns out that that coach also had a female junior athlete suspended for EPO use and who died suddenly at age 20, but nobody noticed or cared, because he somehow was made coach for the Commonwealth team despite this.
The top 1500m runner in the UK was busted for EPO use.
Another lesser ranked 800m UK runner also tested positive.
Multiple other British runners tested positive.
Imagine if this all happened and I was here insisting that it only proved that Kenyans must be cheating worse? (as with El K and what really has been happening with Kenyan runners?)
If just one of the above happened, you would never see me on this forum again, and I probably wouldn't even follow athletics anymore.
Of middle-distance and distance events, the only records that are suspect in my eyes are Hicham El Guerrouj's mile and 1500. There isn't much of a reason to suspect Rudisha of doping, nor Komen. Kipchoge is about the last person I'd suspect of PED usage. Bekele's name gets tossed around, but he's put up astounding performances for so long I don't think he should realistically be under suspicion - his marathon performances coming back from injury and off of limited buildups validate his 5k and 10k performances to me, and honesty the arch of his career is much more logical than someone like Mo Farah.
Note: I don't think Tadese or Kiptum's performances are that suspect either - there are several athletes who could probably run a world record-caliber half right now, but it's so infrequently contested by top marathoners and 10kers for time that the well of high-caliber efforts is pretty shallow.
there could be a couple of clean africans out there on the record books.
that's about it.
and the clean guys are taking herbs, bull testes, vitamin b12 injections, etc. etc.
any you have the paula radcliffe approach, with infusions to get you healthy and what not.
then there is the 1978 to 1988 era where blood doping went underground and who's doing what is not well established.
basically all sports are dirty, more or less.
Talked with a guy who trained with Rudisha, he was originally shocked but pretty confident that Rudisha was clean
Raddison wrote:
I would say that if you took the top ten list for each distance then it is likely that at least one of the athletes in the top ten is clean but I have no idea which one.
Hard to believe. For example in the 800 and the 15, 10th best is only about 1.5% slower than the world record holder.
Therefore, if anyone of them would have been clean, he could have easily gotten the world record when doping. Imagine the temptation.
We've got a fair number of American men that I feel are clean running 13:0X's. Hassan Mead, Ben True, Ryan Hill, Evan Jager, Eric Jenkins. I pick these guys because they did not seem like freaks in college that destroyed everyone in every race. Now if these guys can run 13:0X's seemingly clean, and maybe one of them will go off and run 12:58 before it's all said and done, then I totally believe there are some very talented people out there that also worked hard and are freaks of nature that could run 12:40's in the right conditions, and maybe even the world record of 12:37. I could give other examples of seemingly human guys running 3:30, or 26:50's. So I do not think most of the records are 100% dirty. And if they are dirty, then the clean world record isn't as far off as most people seem to think.
Raddison wrote:
I think they all are suspect. To be honest I have no idea who the current mile, 5000m, 10,000m etc. record holder is as I have no confidence that they are clean. Why get all excited about an individual only to have your bubble burst if they test positive? I would say that if you took the top ten list for each distance then it is likely that at least one of the athletes in the top ten is clean but I have no idea which one. And it is pointless to try to speculate.
I also believe that the percentage of dopers is higher in countries that have less effective testing than in the West. But also that the West has more sophisticated ways of cheating, micro dosing TUE abuse etc. Hence my tendency to take issue with people who claim they are all dirty but we are all clean. It's across the board, just easier in some places than others.
I lost my innocence during the time before and after the LA Olympics. At that point I realized that cheating was rampant in the sport and not just the Soviet Block. At the time I actively followed the achievements of Coe, Ovett, Cram, Foster, Bedford, Moorecroft etc. but I came to realize that if I believed everyone of them was clean I was deluding myself.
How can you possibly be taken seriously when you don't know who the current record holder is? I learned those names in 7th grade.
I agree with others that Rudisha strikes me as potentially clean. His mechanics are just so good, and PEDs don't help that.
For some reason his outlier status makes me think he is clean, and I would usually consider an outlier to be a red flag.
He just looks so smooth running 48 pace, incredible.
Nick Simmonds has mentioned during some interview that he's pretty sure Rudisha is clean, and he was also a finalist in that amazing 2012 London Olympic race. He mentioned some names that he thought were NOT clean, including past champs in 1500 and 5K etc...