back to back hard days for 10k

Bad idea. Better to have 2 rest days.

Predictor wrote:

Bad idea. Better to have 2 rest days.

Agreed. Do speed session Tues, strength Fri and long run sunday

"Speed days" and "Tempo days" are overrated. Just spread the workload throughout the week. Through in some tempo miles at the end of a daily run. Swing by the track every few days and do drills and sprints until you are pleasantly tired. Quit trying to be a workout hero, always flirting with injury. If you are training, eating and sleeping right, you should never have DOMS, and never get sick or injured.

Agreed wrote:

Predictor wrote:

Bad idea. Better to have 2 rest days.

Agreed. Do speed session Tues, strength Fri and long run sunday

What are the reasons?

- injury?

- no adaptation / supercompensation: 1st day 's effect will be shadowed by 2nd day?

- won't be able to do the second day the way it should be done (rep count, pace, being "relaxed" etc.)?

Being time crunched AND 34yo AND slow (~46min 10k), I don't feel I use my time wisely.

- small amount of training impulse: I don't have the time and the speed to run high milage. I don't even run 10-11k (6-7 miles) in an hour(!!) on my easy days, easy pace...

So an avarage week suggested by you:

speed session: 6-8 miles inc. wu cd, tempo run: 8-10 miles (2 wu + 4-7 tempo + 1 cd), long run: 12-14 miles (remember my easy pace: 9:10 - 10:00 min/miles!), other 50-75min easy runs a week: 3-4 x 6-8 miles.

Total: 44 - 55 miles tops

Only way to pump up those miles is one or two more strictly aerob tempos, which I could squeeze in after my speed sessions.

Never do back to back workouts.

Ever.

Supertramp wrote:

Never do back to back workouts.

Ever.

If you are so knowledgeable, could you explain why not?

Go for it. I do back-to-back hard days like that all the time and have never been injured.

Hobbyjoggaz in Paris wrote:

Supertramp wrote:

Never do back to back workouts.

Ever.

If you are so knowledgeable, could you explain why not?

I am not so knowledgeable, so I'll keep it simple:

Stress + Rest = Growth

You do not progress if you don't rest after stress. You just lead yourself to injury.

Now, I should qualify "Never do back to back workouts"

Never= I am sure somebody could come up with a situation where it might make sense, but in a perfect world, you never have any reason to do this. You should have at least one day between hard efforts. But if you do, for whatever reason, do a back to back workout, you should not do another hard effort for at least one week.

Back to back= I think you need at least 48 hours between hard efforts

Workout=This means a hard effort workout. Not like a few strides, or a few easy tempo Ks, or something like that. Like, a long tempo run, track intervals, etc.

Hardloper wrote:

Go for it. I do back-to-back hard days like that all the time and have never been injured.

Agreed. Your plan accumulates stress and then has extra rest - no problem. Hard training everyday would be problem, but that's not what you're suggesting.

My only recommendation is to skip the order, doing the longer/slower paced stuff on the first day and the shorter/faster work on the second.

It's been years since I read it, but I do recall Daniels recommending a tempo run on one day followed by shorter reps (e.g. 8x400) on the next day; he suggested this (again iirc) as a possibility for high schoolers who might have a strict racing schedule that doesn't allow for a hard-easy schedule. There's no reason you can do it as well.

One thing the OP hasn't mentioned is his 10K PR or goal time and his training paces. Knowing those would be helpful and maybe even essential.

In general I think back-to-back hard days are possible, but 1) it's a big stress that will require lots of rest (which the OP knows); and 2) it's more likely to be something to do once or twice in a buildup rather than every week (which I'm not sure he knows).

I'd also recommend scaling back those workouts a bit. Two hard days in a row is a big stress, but the workouts he describes are also super stressful individually. I'm not sure what paces he's running, but for me that would be something like 10 x 460 meters at mile pace one day, and 3-4 * 1.75 miles at 10K pace the next. Maybe for a subelite that's doable, but I don't think the OP is a subelite, just based on his easy paces (which I think are fine). Each of those workouts on their own would wipe me out for a week or more. If the OP goes ahead with his plan, I'd recommend starting with no more than 6 x 90 seconds the first day and 2 x 10 minutes at tempo pace (and not CV pace) the next, and see how that goes.

Supertramp wrote:

but in a perfect world, you never have any reason to do this.

Back to back= I think you need at least 48 hours between hard efforts

Workout=This means a hard effort workout. Not like a few strides, or a few easy tempo Ks, or something like that. Like, a long tempo run, track intervals, etc.

Yeah, but a 34 yo man with a job and other stuff might not be considered a "perfect world". Well, it IS perfect, but not from a workout standpoint...

But, as I said DOMS hits me exactly at 32 hours, peaking at around 48-60 hours. It has been like this for ages: 20 years ago in training camps, I was in DOMS pain from the 2nd day till the end of the camp (+2 days after it), while my friends started to feel it only on the last days, if they ever felt it... And I was not working harder than them.

Is my suggested:

2nd day, longer aerob intervals :

3-4 x (10 minutes slightly faster than tempo pace (CV pace?) + 2:00 jog or walk rest)

considered as "hard effort"? Not easy for sure, but I am thinking more of a comfortably hard effort split into 3-4 parts. I would not run a consecutive 40min tempo after the 1st day.

compressed wrote:

My only recommendation is to skip the order, doing the longer/slower paced stuff on the first day and the shorter/faster work on the second.

It's been years since I read it, but I do recall Daniels recommending a tempo run on one day followed by shorter reps (e.g. 8x400) on the next day; he suggested this (again iirc) as a possibility for high schoolers who might have a strict racing schedule that doesn't allow for a hard-easy schedule. There's no reason you can do it as well.

I would do the way I've mentioned, because speed work needs fresh(er) legs and fresher mind, while tempo intervals on tired legs and tired mind need more "balls" :) So the 2nd day would be a threshold AND a mental toughness workout combined.

What's the a reason doing the 8x400s speed focused session on tired legs? I wouldn't be able to hold a certain relatively fast pace.

My current 10k might be around 46mins (~7:25 mile pace).

First day, the 1:30s where exactly 400 meters @ 6:02 pace (1% incline threadmill because of cold winter weather - i don't do intervals in cold weather)

The second day would be around 1.4 miles under 10 minutes ~7:10 pace.

"which I'm not sure he knows" - on point ;)

My opening post was written after yesterdays workout, which was the 1st day (so summary: 10 x 400meters in 1:30 with 2:30 walk rest on a 1% incline threadmill), feeling strong, wanting to do the tempo intervals. But the first few replies made me do a 9:00 pace easy run for 75mins. After finishing the easy just an hour ago, i still feel I could have done the 3 x 10 min tempos / CVs today...

Or maybe I should have done the first day even faster and/or more reps?

Kumite wrote:

I'm considering doing back to back hard/workout days for 10k training, for example:

1st day, speed:

10 x (1:30 minutes @ mile pace + 2:30 walk rest)

2nd day, longer aerob intervals :

3-4 x (10 minutes slightly faster than tempo pace (CV pace?) + 2:00 jog or walk rest)

Your first workout is somewhat reasonable, but is hard enough as is. Your second workout, or at least description of what it would be, indicates a serious misunderstanding of what CV pace is. LT pace would be reasonable. Also, switching the workouts is probably better. I only offer this advice because it seems inevitable that you won't heed any advice on this thread and will go through with this anyways because you didn't heed any advice beforehand that tells you to NOT do this and clearly don't understand how to set up your own training well. Glad you at least seem to have some understanding of your body in terms of DOMS though.

That said, I will try my hardest.

Don't do this. It's a bad idea. Long runs after workouts are the closest you should ever get to doing medium to hard days back to back.

Don't do it. Time crunch or not, you haven't done it thus far. Why change.

skrub98 wrote:

"Your first workout is somewhat reasonable"

What would be a reasonable workout, without the "somewhat"?

a serious misunderstanding of what CV pace is. LT pace would be reasonable.

My understanding is:

LT = 1 hour pace, which is ~ 7:30-7:40 pace based on my 7:25 10k pace

CV = 30 minutes pace which is ~ 7:10

"Also, switching the workouts is probably better."

Switching workouts: I might understand: the reason is speedwork develops much more damage in my muscles, while tempo intervals are not. By doing speed before tempo, I would do the second hardish workout with an already somewhat highly damaged muscles. Am I getting into the right direction?

it seems inevitable that you won't heed any advice on this thread and will go through with this anyways

Nope, I tend to read a lot, ask a lot, than do my training based on advices, experience and science. I have fairly little time to train, so I aim to get the most bang of my buck.

If you read back, I didn't do the 2nd workout, just went on a 75 min easy after reading the first few replies, so I'm convincible.

It's just... really hard to navigate through all the training methods and articles etc. Just read this very thread:

3 "don't do it"s followed by 2 'do it"s and an "back-to-back hard days are possible", followed by another "don't do it".

malmo wrote:

Living in the Past wrote:

Malmo, how often did you do tempo runs?

As often as possible. Sometimes 3, 4 or 5 times a week. You will rarely see the word "tempo" in my logs because I do them extemporaneously. I let the tempos runs come to me naturally. I don't force them.

Kumite wrote:

"Also, switching the workouts is probably better."

Switching workouts: I might understand: the reason is speedwork develops much more damage in my muscles, while tempo intervals are not. By doing speed before tempo, I would do the second hardish workout with an already somewhat highly damaged muscles. Am I getting into the right direction?

Right. If you do the tempo right (=not too hard) then you'll be good to go for the faster stuff. Additionally, the knowledge that you have a fast workout the next day will help to keep you from racing your tempo.