That mysterious mile 15-18 range where things get tough...

There's nothing mysterious about the last 1/3 of a race being tough. If you can't keep up the same pace it's because you went out too fast and weren't fit enough to handle it.

It's often said that the half way point in the marathon is 20 miles.

Too ambitious of a pace if you’re having trouble 15-18 miles in.

If it’s happening between 15-18 I’d guess it’s mostly a lack of miles in training. Not just long runs but weekly mileage. Run more.

So even if I did a solid Daniels 2Q block in the 60mi/avg range, had a solid half 4-5wks out, using that time and going :10-:20s/mi slower per the VDOT for M pace and still experiencing this...that this is still pacing/undertrained? No possibility of fueling or other stuff?

Also, I am a mid 3h marathoner, so I understand the need for 70-80mi/wk+ for the fast guys doing sub-3. But I would think 60/wk is what to expect for mid-3h world unless you have talent.

Eat a lot more carbs starting 3 days before marathon. Never experienced any problems during marathon. Seen a lot of guys with problems because they didnt carb load properly. And don't start too fast ofcourse

Hmm its usually 21-23 miles before i start getting those feelings.

GRhobbyjogger wrote:

So even if I did a solid Daniels 2Q block in the 60mi/avg range, had a solid half 4-5wks out, using that time and going :10-:20s/mi slower per the VDOT for M pace and still experiencing this...that this is still pacing/undertrained?

Yes.

GRhobbyjogger wrote:

No possibility of fueling or other stuff?

Wishful thinking.

You're already fueling (unless you're an idiot), and minor tweaks to this will have a minor impact at best.

You want to believe there's some magic gel that will fix it but there's not.

It comes down to fitness and really, 15-18 is early in the marathon. As mentioned, 20 miles should feel like the "halfway" point.

Ezekiel bread wrote:

It's often said that the half way point in the marathon is 20 miles.

This. The first 20 miles of a 'thon are quite easy. The last 6 miles are extremely difficult.

'Nuf said.

A few things. Keep in mind that people will disagree but I had a good Marathon this spring due to a few things.

1. Mileage. I needed an average of 55 miles a week for 5 months to run a good one. You can't run two weeks of 60 mpw and then one week of 15 miles the following week and tell people you are running 60mpw. You need to be consistent with mileage.

2. Long Runs. Lots of them. I had two 17 milers, two 19 milers, a 15 miler, and two 22 mile runs. Based on my pace for my long runs, I was able to determine my goal pace. This is where people disagree, but I think it's very important to hit the long runs pretty hard. These are workouts and I ran easy for the rest of the week except for some hard intervals midweek.

For example, if you want to run a 7:15 pace for a marathon, I think you try to hit 7:20's in your long runs. Like most people say, the race starts at 20, but for me the race really started at 22 and I knew I was confident I could maintain my pace for another 4 miles despite the quads getting heavy. You absolutely, positively, need to get comfortable at race pace. It is silly to me to think that you can do long runs at 8:20 pace and then expect to cut down 40 seconds per mile on race day. That's how people hit the wall.

3. Don't be afraid to carb up heavy two days before the race. Go big on Pizza and Pasta. The day before I drank a lot of water and ate normally. I had a lot in reserves and didn't feel like a bloated mess on race day.

4. Hit many water stations...take lots of GU's. I went through 4 GU's in my race and stayed away from Gatorade.

5. Consistent pacing. I ran 6:55's the whole way and never changed my pace until the final 2 miles where I hammered them as best as I could and negative split it. I was constantly staring at my watch and having to slow down because I had the urge to run faster. You need to hold back. This is how it's done if you want to be absolutely flying by people at mile 23.

The marathon is a mental challenge and about being very patient. People run bad marathons because they run on instinct instead of actual logic.

This guy is right. Keep in mind that not all of us are wired to run a marathon. Half marathon conversions are useless, even for many elites. Look at all the Americans than can run a sub 63/63 half but then can’t break 2:15 for a full.

Would emphasize the point about long term, consistent mileage. You need to be at 60+ for at least half a year. Of course others can do one without bonking on much less, but you’ve proven that’s not you.

Also agree with the pace on long runs. For people in your time range and with your makeup, you need lots is time at marathon pace. I’d go as far as to say you should be able to tackle 16-20 at MP.

Thanks Candy for that input.

Good points and I agree for anyone that finds this thread. I do a pretty good job at being consistent week in/week out for months on end. I have been over 2k yearly mileage for a few years and increasing that year-to-year.

My general goal is to run at least 16 every weekend. I usually stick to the Daniels time limits of 2h30m so I have a bunch of 18s also. Once in a while I will go to 20, but maybe that needs to change for future cycles since my race is this weekend.

Most of my LRs are Daniels workouts, so I spend a lot of time at T and M pace. But I have buddy's that conform to this line of thought and do really well at marathons...it does make me wonder.

This is something I am working on and will be trying something similar this week. I have a iron stomach and can handle gels pretty well during a race, just never tried a lot.

Same reply as above

I can be a metronome racing, just need to lock in the right pace.

Well said!

Training programs wrote:

If it’s happening between 15-18 I’d guess it’s mostly a lack of miles in training. Not just long runs but weekly mileage. Run more.

My own experience would back this up. No matter how well I've felt in my training long runs, if my weekly mileage is not up to snuff, things start falling apart in the 15-18 mile range. I'm at the point now where I'm not even gonna attempt a marathon unless I have a solid 6 months of decent mileage. It's just not fun trying to survive a marathon on crappy mileage.

In my best marathons, I was half-asleep through ten miles. This is easier for me as I am not a morning person. By the time 15 miles comes around, I can focus on the job at hand more easily.

YMMV wrote:

In my best marathons, I was half-asleep through ten miles. This is easier for me as I am not a morning person. By the time 15 miles comes around, I can focus on the job at hand more easily.

And this is how you should feel. I remember my spring marathon feeling insanely short. As I crossed the finish line, I I stood around for a bit and said..."that's it?" The miles sneak up on you quick when you are doing well. I'm not exaggerating this. A mile feels like a half a mile when you are really in the zone.

The reason why?

Most people - including the idiots at Hansons - think that running a 16 mile run will prep you for a marathon. It's a totally different ball game.

This leads to people shorting themselves on the long runs and don't put in the work required to be successful .

If people would pack in the right amount of miles (70-80) and get that consistent long run in (say 18 miles - 22 miles), they would avoid these problems. I actually think a lot of folks would benefit from doing 28 - 30 mile runs.

Instead, they cut corners - look at their half marathon converted time and assume that if they can run a ~1:20 half, they can easily run a 2:50 marathon.

It's not that simple..

Put in the work - get your body used to running for 20+ miles and you'll do just fine.

Oh I am more than willing to put the work in (70-80mpw) My best "build" averaged in the upper 60s for 3 months prior to the race and low-mid 50s the 3 months prior to that. The result was 8min slower than my PR (which was off the Hanson plan, which I have moved on from btw). So I guess I had a bad race day too. I really am hoping that "just more miles" will get me to the next level (haha, which is just getting to a BQ). Hence the hobbyjogger I suppose.

That sounds like a lot of hard miles on long runs. When I’ve tried to run that many long miles at or near race pace, I get hamstring issues. I dropped from consecutive 3:17s last fall and this spring to 3:09 this fall on one of Pfitzinger’s plans. I did my long runs between 8:30-9:00, mostly.