London to use male pacemakers for Paula

What a joke, I bet the UK guys who need pacemakers to run the World Champs qualifying time won't get any pacers, marathon running is getting ridiculous, a marathon director is terrified if the race doesn't produce a WR, its almost seen as a failure. Let her run on her own

I disagree. It looks like they will provide pacers for the women from 2:15 to 2:24, thus Paula isn't the only one with this "advantage". And, if any woman feels like trying to stay with her, they always have that option.

Additionally, the lead men have each other to pace off of at 2:05 pace. Why should Paula have the DISadvantage of having to run by herself just because she's in a league of her own?

I agree with Skylon on this one.

And whaddya think, will wejo sign on and bring her home in 2:15?

Have to say I agree with skylon....

The men looking to qualify for the worlds will be in the main race and have plenty of other men around them looking to run a decent time anyway.

As PR is running hot at the moment she should not be disadvantaged by having to go alone. ( it also means that they'll be able to cover the womens race equally and not have the problem's they had in Chicago of trying to find the lead women in the mixed field )

Think the last quote from the article "It is obviously very difficult to find pacemakers who can go fast enough for me so this arrangement will help me discover my true worth over the distance." suggest to me that she's looking to knock a big chunk of her own record...!

What's next? Using greyhounds or R/C cars to pace Tim Mongomery or Dwain Chambers to a new 100 mark?

Let me get this straight: Paula can use male pacers in a women's only race to get a WR but, if Regina shows up at an all-comers meet in Palo Alto and gets a WR running the 1500 with men, that's not record eligible?

Shit! Let's go the whole nine yards with this "artificial" trend and allow any and all drugs. Why not? It's all about records, right?

I have an idea. Why not put a motorcycle in front of her with a big plastic shield on the back that she can run behind. Maybe her coach could ride on the back to give her split times and reports on the competition. I don't like it. She's in a leaque of her own so much that no woman can keep up with her for 13 miles in the marathon? I don't think so. All marathons should play by the same rules. No unfair advantage.

I'm surprised that so many people are defending the practice of using male pacemakers to assist a woman's effort to set a world best. Last year, I admired London for separating the elite women's race from the men. Now, it appears that London, like so many other races, has caved to the market's unquenchable thirst for ever-faster performances.

Dang, in my weakened state today (nose/eye watering thing) I've been slow to post on some threads of interest and just when I'm ready, Portland says what I would but better. There's a related story on RW Daily today by stat guru Ken Young that talks about pacing and record keeping. I'd provide the link but that's outside my computer comprehension.

The IAAF was way-hasty in adopting the record standards they did not long ago. They failed to listen to or account for a number of problem areas in the standards they proposed. This 'pacing' deal is among them.

For one, I wouldn't want to be paced.

"Portland Runner" and "patio" beat me to it. Grossly sexist. Khannouchi doesn't have the opportunity to be paced by a horse (something with a structural superiority for running). By doing this the Flora London Marathon is propagating the message that a woman deserves extra assistance unavaible to a man. And eliminates the so-called "women's only" race that is supposed to benefit women.

Although there are women good enough to pace Radcliffe as far as any male pacer could take a man, the women won't do it b/c they would have to be so good that they could win the race themselves, which is a lot more rewarding, psychologically and financially, than even the best-loved and best-paid pacer could hope for.

I have mixed feelings about this. One on hand I wonder about the legality of any record that might be set. As I understand it, pacers are acceptable only if they are entered in the race and are legally capable of winning (i.e., start with everyone else and run the same course). Certainly we have seen cases of pacers sticking with it and winning the race. This cannot be the case with male pacers in a women's race. They cannot legally win.

On the other hand, Paula really IS in a class by herself. She's about 1.5 minutes faster than the second fastest time ever and 2.5 minutes faster than the third fastest time ever. What would we be saying about Khannouchi if #2 Tergat had run just over 2:07, the #3 all timer ran 2:08, and if it appeared that Khalid was capable of much more?

Not advocating, just wondering.

patio wrote:

I have an idea. Why not put a motorcycle in front of her with a big plastic shield on the back that she can run behind. Maybe her coach could ride on the back to give her split times and reports on the competition. I don't like it. She's in a leaque of her own so much that no woman can keep up with her for 13 miles in the marathon? I don't think so. All marathons should play by the same rules. No unfair advantage.

I know people hate RW, but there was a good story about Geb's 10K run potentially being aided by the lead vehicle. So maybe....

What about the US Marathon Champs where a relay was set up for the men to get "A" qualifiers to the US Oly Trials?

I think pacers are fine as long as the person has the chance to win the race. What if the male pacer runs 2:10 and something happens in the back to the men (who start later) and no one there runs faster than 2:11? Would that man who paced Paula be the winner?

Pacing is going to happen, but this is ridiculous. Why not just start the women with the men so she can pace off of them? At least that is far more legitimate in my mind since those men should be running their own races trying to qualifiers anyway so while she would get aid from them, they would not be consciously giving aid. In other words, they would not slow down just so she could maintain pace.

In reality, many of us "pace" off of others. I pick out a person and pace off him/her.

Maybe I'm not looking at this from the same angle as a bunch of you. If she set the world record in a co-ed race (like she did in Chicago) we wouldn't be having this discussion. Paula is doing great things for our favourite sport by building some substantial buzz. What's the down side here?

First, luv2run refers to the same article I mention.

Pete wrote:

Maybe I'm not looking at this from the same angle as a bunch of you. If she set the world record in a co-ed race (like she did in Chicago) we wouldn't be having this discussion. Paula is doing great things for our favourite sport by building some substantial buzz. What's the down side here?

Downside...maybe more a matter of interpretation than anything is this: When is a record a record? What are the guidelines that should be in place for a record to be considered for approval?

The IAAF adoped standards that fail to consider long-held guidelines in the US and the reasons for those guidelines. Check out the RW Daily piece and click on Ken Young's name if you'd like to learn more about the difference.

First, luv2run refers to the same article I mention.

Pete wrote:

Maybe I'm not looking at this from the same angle as a bunch of you. If she set the world record in a co-ed race (like she did in Chicago) we wouldn't be having this discussion. Paula is doing great things for our favourite sport by building some substantial buzz. What's the down side here?

Downside...maybe more a matter of interpretation than anything is this: When is a record a record? What are the guidelines that should be in place for a record to be considered for approval?

The IAAF adoped standards that fail to consider long-held guidelines in the US and the reasons for those guidelines. Check out the RW Daily piece and click on Ken Young's name if you'd like to learn more about the difference.

Pete,

Cheating is the down side. Unfair advantage. When in a mixed sex race, if men are intentionaly pacing a woman, it's cheating. Just like my motorcycle idea with a sheild to block the wind and someone giving her splits, projected finish times or information on the competition.

I think it's cheating.

Maybe we're splitting hairs. I don't see this as cheating any more than the lead pack relying on a paid rabbit which happens for the men in nearly every marathon. There are very few marathon winners that don't benefit from the use of paid rabbits. KK is an obvious notable exception.

I guess the only possible argument I can see here is regarding the validity of a world record, but I don't personally buy that either. If they had the elite women run with the men, she'd get the same advantage, because there should be plenty of guys going sub-2:15. In my mind, IAAF rules or not, Paula's Chicago result is the world record, and whatever she runs in London (2:15 and change) will be the new world record.

Anyway, it's not that I don't see where you're coming from, it's just that I'm blinded by the positive aspects. Paula is single-handedly doubling the interest in our sport among the masses.

I say go Paula go!

Much as I hate to agree with Waz (he hates Paula), I think the plan is ridiculous. This 'compromise' rather then being the best of both worlds, is the worst.

Personally, I'd like to see an end of pacemakers (seriously) I think they are ruining the sport.

Pete,

The issue is this: If London was a mixed race, mass start event, then Paula is running as part of the larger field and she would be negociating traffic like everyone else. It just so happens, she can beat most of the men.

London is proposing a handful of men, running in a women's only field, for the purpose of pacing a woman to a record.

So, why is this legitimate in a marathon but, not in a track race? Should we provide male pacers in women's track races like the Worlds and Oly Games? I can see it now, Nicole Teter wants to set an AR so she enlists Johnny Gray to run a 1:54 800m. just in front of her. Perhaps Marion Jones can get her boyfriend Tim to run a 10.3 right next to her in lane 3? Patti Sue Plummer and Regina Jacobs have each run some very fast times in mixed heats at open track meets but, those marks were not recognized since "superior" male runners made those times possible.

This could open a Pandora's Box that would effectively kill competition in women's track. The logical next steps are allowing drugs or turning Golden League into "Man vs. Beast II".