Just curious. I feel like the interval times given based upon my goal 5K time (17:35), are just a little slow. Like, take my 5x1000m thresholds. It says I should do them in 3:46, I usually do them in like 3:37-3:39 and feel good. Can someone better explain it to me and if it is really worth it to follow? Anyone that has used it or uses it, post ur times below please.
OlympicHopefull wrote:
Just curious. I feel like the interval times given based upon my goal 5K time (17:35), are just a little slow. Like, take my 5x1000m thresholds. It says I should do them in 3:46, I usually do them in like 3:37-3:39 and feel good. Can someone better explain it to me and if it is really worth it to follow? Anyone that has used it or uses it, post ur times below please.
The idea is that if working just faster than your 5k pace puts you at VO2 max, that running a few seconds faster than that won't give you much benefit in terms of adaptation, but will build up lactate and increase injury risk... I find this to be true in my exp...
If you find the pace a little slow, try shortening the rest a little... if currently jogging for 3:46 btwn 1000s, try knocking that rest down to 3:15 or even 2:45... also, you can do up to 10k worth of these intervals...
PS- this may make you trust VDot even less, but you are supposed to base your workout times on CURRENT fitness (recent race), not GOAL pace.
Maybe you could explain a typical week and your current phase of training. 5x1000 m at "T" pace isn't something I recognize from Daniels training. 5x1000 m at "I" pace might be.
Also paces are based on your current fitness, not a "goal time".
Citizen Runner wrote:
Maybe you could explain a typical week and your current phase of training. 5x1000 m at "T" pace isn't something I recognize from Daniels training. 5x1000 m at "I" pace might be.
Also paces are based on your current fitness, not a "goal time".
Good catch. Missed that.
I agree with theJeff about decreasing your rest. But also, if you're able to do 5x 1000m, then consider moving up to 1200s instead. That extra 200m adds a nice degree of difficulty at the end. So maybe 4x 1200m if you want to keep the volume the same. Or alternate 1000s and 1200s, keeping the rest consistent. Another adjustment is decreasing the rest over a series of workouts. So first time might be 3:30 rest, but then each workout after drops the rest by 10-15s.
I think Daniels gets a lot of criticism on here because of the tables. Having exact numbers is both a blessing and a curse. Easy to follow exact numbers, but you can also get bogged down in thinking you have to stay inside the box. I have always used them as a guideline instead of gospel truth.
Just remember that just because you can run the workout faster, doesn't mean you should. That is one of the key tenets of his philosophy; only do the amount of work needed to accomplish the goal. That will allow you to recover faster and get to the next workout with fresher legs.
I usuallt do the rest for the 5x1000 in 1:00 active rest
I was assuming (as were others) that you were running these at I pace. T pace changes the conversation. What is your weekly mileage?
At 17:35 5k, 1000s are too short for T pace. You should be doing 1600s, at least. With some workouts you could extend those to as long as 3200m. Then you can do your 60s rest for each 1600m, so if you get up to 3200m, then you're at 2 min rest, but I would probably do 90s unless you are jogging instead of standing/stretching.
Rest for 1000s at T pace would be around 40s.
Bullet the Blue Sky wrote:
I was assuming (as were others) that you were running these at I pace. T pace changes the conversation. What is your weekly mileage?
At 17:35 5k, 1000s are too short for T pace. You should be doing 1600s, at least. With some workouts you could extend those to as long as 3200m. Then you can do your 60s rest for each 1600m, so if you get up to 3200m, then you're at 2 min rest, but I would probably do 90s unless you are jogging instead of standing/stretching.
Rest for 1000s at T pace would be around 40s.
I do them at threshold pace, heart rate is max at 178, usually around 172-173. I do one min jog rest.
Then these are going to feel terribly easy. I am not sure why you are doing this workout this way. It is an awfully short bout of threshold pace work - you are not going to get enough of a build up of waste products (the goal of this kind of workout) with work bouts that short, especially if you are getting a fair amount of rest relative to the work bout, and especially with light jogging in between, which flushes out the waste products that do manage to accumulate.
If you want to get a better sense of whether this pace is for you, try a 20 minute tempo run at the prescribed pace. About 12-15 minutes in, you should be able to answer questions with full sentences, but maintaining a conversation should be uncomfortable. If that turns out to be the case, then you can be comfortable that you have found the right pace and can go back and do interval sessions on the track at that pace. Make the work bouts 5 minutes or longer, and keep the work to rest ratio at 5:1. I think passive rest is better for this workout, but others disagree.
I have used this approach to threshold sessions successfully - times run the last year at age 45-46 (not the PRs that you asked for, but more relevant since they are current): 15:41 5k/49:17 15k/1:11:04 half marathon.
The classic Daniels threshold workout is 20 minutes at "T Pace". The point of doing "cruise intervals" is that it makes it less stressful to spend more time at T pace. Thus instead of running about 3.3 miles at T pace in 20 minutes, the OP could instead run 5 x 1 mile with 1 minute rest to get more miles at T pace with a similar level of stress.
5 x 1000 m by this measure is rather pointless and excessively easy. However, it's not easy because the paces are too slow, it's easy because the repeats are too short. It should be noted also that in Daniels, the T pace runs aren't ever the ball busters and one shouldn't feel beat up at the completion of such a workout. All of this is in the book.
Citizen Runner wrote:
The classic Daniels threshold workout is 20 minutes at "T Pace". The point of doing "cruise intervals" is that it makes it less stressful to spend more time at T pace. Thus instead of running about 3.3 miles at T pace in 20 minutes, the OP could instead run 5 x 1 mile with 1 minute rest to get more miles at T pace with a similar level of stress.
5 x 1000 m by this measure is rather pointless and excessively easy. However, it's not easy because the paces are too slow, it's easy because the repeats are too short.
It's relatively easy physiologically, but it doesn't follow that it's pointless. For an inexperienced runner or a runner just getting back into it, a workout like this can be a stepping stone to longer, harder workouts. Especially if one isn't used to doing hard workouts, it can take a while to recalibrate one's brain.
This also wouldn't be a bad workout for even an experienced runner if dropped in the right place. For example, if you have a harder workout on Tuesday and a race on the weekend, you could do this on Thursday so you're a little fresher.
Citizen Runner wrote:
It should be noted also that in Daniels, the T pace runs aren't ever the ball busters and one shouldn't feel beat up at the completion of such a workout. All of this is in the book.
He does say this, but I've never known anyone who finds an unbroken tempo at his T pace to be anything but painful. Also, I haven't read the third edition, but someone told me that he is now more willing to acknowledge that T pace isn't so much "comfortably hard" as just hard. Can anyone confirm that?
The unbroken T pace runs are certainly tougher than his cruise intervals (T miles). But I think if you're running the correct pace for your fitness, then they fit in that area just above comfortably hard. Admittedly, though, I was training for 1/2 marathon & 15k races most of the times when I've used the 20-minute T runs. Daniels claims T to be race pace for an hour. I was running 5:50-5:55, so it was just under 1/3 of race distance for me, and it was not too tough. For 1/2 marathons, I would occasionally do 2x5k at T pace with 800m jog. When I hit that, I knew I was ready to go.
800 dude wrote:
Citizen Runner wrote:
It should be noted also that in Daniels, the T pace runs aren't ever the ball busters and one shouldn't feel beat up at the completion of such a workout. All of this is in the book.
He does say this, but I've never known anyone who finds an unbroken tempo at his T pace to be anything but painful. Also, I haven't read the third edition, but someone told me that he is now more willing to acknowledge that T pace isn't so much "comfortably hard" as just hard. Can anyone confirm that?
800 dude wrote:
Also, I haven't read the third edition, but someone told me that he is now more willing to acknowledge that T pace isn't so much "comfortably hard" as just hard. Can anyone confirm that?
From the third edition:
"The intensity of T (threshold) runs should be comfortably hard, which means you are definitely working relatively hard, but the pace is manageable for a fairly long time (certainly 20 or 30 minutes in practice). Peaked and rested, you can race at T pace for about 60 minutes ..."
"As opposed to M and E runs, which for well-trained runners are usually not intensities that you keep hoping will end soon, T-pace runs are of that type -- you do look forward to their coming to an end, but they are manageable for a fair number of miles ..."
"Even though cruise intervals provide little periodic rest breaks, that does not mean you should run them faster. In fact, if you think you are not stressed enough doing cruise intervals, just reduce the recovery time a bit."
Bullet the Blue Sky wrote:
I was assuming (as were others) that you were running these at I pace. T pace changes the conversation. What is your weekly mileage?
At 17:35 5k, 1000s are too short for T pace. You should be doing 1600s, at least. With some workouts you could extend those to as long as 3200m. Then you can do your 60s rest for each 1600m, so if you get up to 3200m, then you're at 2 min rest, but I would probably do 90s unless you are jogging instead of standing/stretching.
Rest for 1000s at T pace would be around 40s.
I'll pass this along to Eliud Kipchoge so that he can do more effective workouts.
Eliot Kipchode wrote:
Bullet the Blue Sky wrote:
I was assuming (as were others) that you were running these at I pace. T pace changes the conversation. What is your weekly mileage?
At 17:35 5k, 1000s are too short for T pace. You should be doing 1600s, at least. With some workouts you could extend those to as long as 3200m. Then you can do your 60s rest for each 1600m, so if you get up to 3200m, then you're at 2 min rest, but I would probably do 90s unless you are jogging instead of standing/stretching.
Rest for 1000s at T pace would be around 40s.
I'll pass this along to Eliud Kipchoge so that he can do more effective workouts.
I was thinking this too, but he does like 15 of them. :)
Allen1959 wrote:
800 dude wrote:
Also, I haven't read the third edition, but someone told me that he is now more willing to acknowledge that T pace isn't so much "comfortably hard" as just hard. Can anyone confirm that?
From the third edition:
"The intensity of T (threshold) runs should be comfortably hard, which means you are definitely working relatively hard, but the pace is manageable for a fairly long time (certainly 20 or 30 minutes in practice). Peaked and rested, you can race at T pace for about 60 minutes ..."
"As opposed to M and E runs, which for well-trained runners are usually not intensities that you keep hoping will end soon, T-pace runs are of that type -- you do look forward to their coming to an end, but they are manageable for a fair number of miles ..."
"Even though cruise intervals provide little periodic rest breaks, that does not mean you should run them faster. In fact, if you think you are not stressed enough doing cruise intervals, just reduce the recovery time a bit."
I have never found T pace "comfortably hard." In a workout like 4x2, T pace is comfortably hard for the first 2 miles, then just hard for the middle 2, and then it feels like racing for the final 2. I say this as someone who uses the VDOT calculator extensively and have my T pace dialed in off of recent HM races, so it's not like they're off of stale fitness levels.
I can't imagine anyone in that final 2 miles of 4x2 thinking "this is hard, but I'm comfortable."
Easy Peasy wrote:
I can't imagine anyone in that final 2 miles of 4x2 thinking "this is hard, but I'm comfortable."
I am with you on that, although I suppose "comfort" is a relative concept.
Wow, completing 4 x 2-miles at T-pace is impressive. I've never done more than 3 x 2-mile and even then, I run a bit slower than actual "one-hour race pace," which at my age is exactly 15K pace.
Running 8 miles at 9-mile race-pace, even with the breaks, would be a heckuva challenge (in a solo workout, especially)!
Allen1959 wrote:
From the third edition:
"The intensity of T (threshold) runs should be comfortably hard, which means you are definitely working relatively hard, but the pace is manageable for a fairly long time (certainly 20 or 30 minutes in practice). Peaked and rested, you can race at T pace for about 60 minutes ..."
"As opposed to M and E runs, which for well-trained runners are usually not intensities that you keep hoping will end soon, T-pace runs are of that type -- you do look forward to their coming to an end, but they are manageable for a fair number of miles ..."
Thanks for this. That is perfect.
Due to achilles problems I am better served with running every other day. To make my runs count I always run at T pace, the filler days are MTB rides, moderate, but with a lot of elevation gain and quite long uphills, 30-90 minutes in total, just how I feel. Rest days when needed, usually after 6-8 days. Practically no intervals, here and then a sprint finish to remember the leg turnover.
At the beginning it was hardly possible to run three days per week at T pace, though the volume is low mileage. I started with something like 3X8min or 20 minutes steady. I have continuously extended the duration, carefully listening to my body. Now a typical session is 20min warm up at easy pace followed by about 40min at T pace, short warm down. Even my "long run" is nothing else, just the warm up is longer. I can honestly say that this is a great producer of aerobic fitness.