Jack Daniels 2Q is insane

Follow the only plan that works. The Listen to your body plan. You can make it up as you go along using intelligent advice from those who have been there and done it. And then when it goes right you can congratulate yourself. When it goes wrong you can only blame yourself and learn from your mistakes. So it's the perfect coaching plan, you learn to coach yourself.

Concentrate on recovery between now and Wednesday. Give it a go on Wednesday. If your not feeling it, then postpone until Thursday and just turn Wednesday's run into a regular training run.

You're training for a Marathon. The training is quite normal as you described it. You should feel beat up right now. If you felt good your body would not adapt.

OP should be feeling good some of the time on most days.

JDs numbers are idealistic not realistic. OP doesn't know what the weather will be like, how warm, humid or whatever. Such things make a big difference and have to be factored in. Your subconscious knows this and ajusts the pace accordingly to a realistic pace.

We all have an idealistic MP and time in the race, but it's just a general guide and nothing more. Specific pace needs specific weather conditions.

^^

you're training for a marathon. you're legs are supposed to feel like crap and you're supposed to be tired. Get through the training and once you peak you'll surprise yourself.

This is all good advice.

The whole plan has been tough, but manageable. Felt myself getting better. But since I starting hitting the stretch of 70 mile weeks I've been feeling like garbage. I usually take saturdays off but can't because I need to hit the weekly mileage, and the workouts are getting harder. I'll see how much tempo work I can do and stop if it's killing me.

I'm on my third go with Daniels 2Q, 55-70. I can give you a few tips here:

- Don't use his M pace. It's unrealistic and will crush you. If you're using his VDOT, use it for your T and I pace, but your M pace is probably something like what he says +10 seconds

- His 4x2 plus 2x1 doesn't make any sense. I've always removed that workout from the plan. This is one of those cases where you need to follow his principles and not what one of his assistants wrote as a workout session in the back. He stresses in his book that you shouldn't run more than 10% of your weekly mileage at T pace in any session. I honestly am convinced that this one workout is a typo. If you take a look at the same workout in the 71-85 plan, it's only 4x2T. So just run 4x2, that's enough T work for you

- Expect to feel like complete crap the days after a Q session. I sometimes need to run those at M+120 or M+150. I then feel slightly better, but still bad for the next E day, but often feel refreshed by day 3. Don't worry about your easy running pace. Just take it as slow as you need to recover and get ready for the next Q session.

- Are you training in a hot location? I get crushed by his workouts in hot/humid weather, but once the weather turns, you will feel like a machine.

- I highly recommend 1 down week for every 3 up weeks. His mileage in the book doesn't really say that, but he talks about it in his book. I usually do 3 up weeks, 1 down week at 70% volume, then go up 5 MPW. So you're increasing mileage about 5 MPW per month with a down week in there. Helps you recover nicely, and the down weeks also give you an opportunity to get a race in at the end of the week because you can mini-taper into them and still hit 70%.

Another tip - don't do it as 4 x 2 miles, but rather 4 x 10:00 at T pace. With your T pace being just under 6:30, that will reduce your T volume by over 20%, and I am fairly comfortable that this is what Daniels intends for this workout - it is how he framed the Marathon Training Plan A workouts in the 2nd Edition of his book (the precursor to the 2Q plan). It is also consistent with his general rule of 1:00 of recovery for every 5:00 at T pace.

Did you pick your training paces based on a goal time or based on your actual previous race results? The MP of 6:51 looks suspiciously like someone with a set goal to run just barely sub 3. Daniel's plans and pace charts are based on current fitness not goal fitness.

I can run a 17:45 5k and I ran a 1:25:50 half last year on no real training and no taper. I think sub 3 is doable.

I’m on Plan A. I do a proper recovery after easy quality. That’s a 4 mile super easy. I would not contemplate doing 8 miles after a 17 miler with M pace stuff.

Holy crap that's a lot of info. I felt like this one work out was just insane. I haven't really been doing down weeks. I just either run 63 miles on a .9 week or 70 on a 1.0

thanks for this write up! this is awesome!

To add to the above poster.

Do doubles on the day after your Q days, 3-5 in the morn, 3-5 in the evening. Pace is irrelevant, take whatever your legs decide feels good.

my legs are tired :( wrote:

I can run a 17:45 5k and I ran a 1:25:50 half last year on no real training and no taper. I think sub 3 is doable.

A 1:25:50 half a year ago is not relevant to fitness at the start of this plan or your current fitness.

Why are you skipping down weeks? They're there for a reason.

The guy who said listen to your body seems like the most reasonable one here. This training plan is a guideline, not a prescription. Sounds like you would greatly benefit from a couple of easy days. Remember that everybody is different, some people recover faster, different people respond differently to different workouts. Sounds like you are about to injure yourself. Don’t do it!

Suspicion wrote:

my legs are tired :( wrote:

I can run a 17:45 5k and I ran a 1:25:50 half last year on no real training and no taper. I think sub 3 is doable.

A 1:25:50 half a year ago is not relevant to fitness at the start of this plan or your current fitness.

Why are you skipping down weeks? They're there for a reason.

I'm not skipping down weeks. I am doing exactly the mileage he says, which is usually 63 miles on a down week and 70 otherwise.

I was running 45 miles per week leading up to that half marathon, with Tempo and interval workouts each week and with a long run of 13 miles. After that I continued 45 miles per week up until 6 months out from this marathon race. I then ramped up to 63 per week over 2 months so when I started the program I'd be ready to go.

I can tell I am in much better shape today then I was then.

That's why you need real down weeks. I think the default should be a down week every 4 weeks, but you can skip it if you feel fresh. As other posters have stated, you have to listen to your body and if you feel like total garbage you need a down week.

Regarding your fitness level, a 17:45 5K and a 1:25 half indicate a lack of endurance. You should be closer to a 1:22 half with that kind of 5K speed. I realize those might be a year apart though.

I would try to get a race in before your marathon, something like a 10 miler or half marathon. This should give you a good idea of whether your M pace is realistic or not. Even though you won't really taper into the half, I would say that you should be able to break 1:24 to have a realistic shot at running sub 3.

Also I agree with another poster that your recovery runs are too long. I would cap them at 1 hour the day after a Q session, but I'm often closer to 45 minutes. You can go for a longer run, something like 90 minutes, 2 days after the Q session.

You are overestimating your M and T paces and aren't as fit as you think.

My 10k pace is 6:05, my half marathon pace is 6:40. I do T at 6:25.

I know I have a lack of endurance, that is why i'm doing 6 months of marathon training. I'm running more miles, many aerobically, than I ever have in my life.