Letsrun called out in BBC article about Mollie Tibbetts and female runners

fu2u2 wrote:

The key is women should be taught and encouraged to respond to any form of harassment they encounter. If women tended to respond back to the harassers two things would happen (in general): 1) men would quickly be socialized to not act like jackasses and 2) women would realize responding deescalates the situation rather than escalate it.

I'm curious if (1) you're a woman and (2) you have actually found responding back to be effective in deescalating the situation.

In my experience (of many responses through the years (flicking off, loudly asking if they have something to say to me, telling them they're being obnoxious, etc.), responding back tends to elicit additional responses at the same level -- no escalation, no deescalation, but the men insist on getting the last word. It's a dominance game to them. Maybe some of them were introspective after the fact, but I can say I've literally never felt that responding back deescalated or stopped harassment in the moment. Literally. Never.

I think fear of escalating is precisely why many women don't respond back. Men are on average bigger and stronger, and many women don't want to risk pissing them off and making them snap. The safer alternative is to pretend not to hear them.

I think that it is interesting and illustrative that among the many times people have shouted things at me, the vast majority from a car or truck, I've heard very, very few responses when I said something back. It changes the dynamic. However, I would not recommend going absolutely crazy as a first response, because many people who were not intending violence will get angry if they are insulted and that would breed a lot more incidents. When the others show their malign and dangerous intents, though, no reason any more to be polite. Pushback is absolutely necessary then.

I’m a woman. To me, being harassed and threatened are two different things: catcalling is harassment; a stranger getting uncomfortably close or following me is a threat. I mostly just ignore catcalls. I used to sometimes shoot back a one liner but, honestly, guys who are obnoxious are too dumb to get them and yes, it just encourages them. It’s not worth your energy. Entering my personal space, though, is s different matter. If I can safely just take off - I do. Otherwise I get right back in the guy’s face and they’ve always backed down. Plus, in a public space, being loud when you’ve been approached threateningly has always in my experience got a guy to come over and help me out. Normal adult males don’t tolerate a woman being threatened any more than women do.

Someone up thread mentioned mountain lion behavior in assessing prey. Spot on. I do what a park ranger once told me to do if I ever came across a mountain lion on a trail: make myself look taller and more badass and like it would hurt to take me on. It’s worked so far.

I also carry mace and have 911 on speed dial, and I’ve had years of self-defense.

I tell my girlfriend to run with her keys in her hand with the keys sticking out between her fingers. If someone grabs you punch him in the eyes with those protruding keys. Just like a corkscrew.

martin545 wrote:

There's a difference between aggressive flirting and a rapist. Sometimes it's hard to tell.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/mgm-content/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2011/09/28/201511_01_ruger_lcp_380_subcompact_auto_640.jpg

There is no such thing as aggressive flirting = that is called harassment.

Despite perceived dangers ALL women joggers still wear earphones.

Cell phone and piercing whistle are still the most effective crime fighting tools available. Think what a criminal wants to avoid = attention.

Are women more likely to receive "attention" now-a-days due to the advent of sports bra and spandex short?

Same advice that I gave my daughter. Along with, while he is screaming and trying to find his eyeball, repeatedly punch his throat so that he'll quiet down while slowly suffocating to death.

I read a study saying a lot of attackers ask something first and recommended women completely ignored them as it forms a psychological wall. I'd say the best defence is to ignore then if that doesn't work run and scream.

Thee us definitely something in aggression being the best form of defence but a little self defence can just get you in more trouble.

I once trsid to kick someone in the balls and missed slightly. Would have been better off throwing a punch. If someone is significantly stronger your not going to win any fight.

My tip if someone ask for the time or whatever look annoyed and completely blank them. If followed run flat out. Once your past 100m most people are so unfit you'll get away. Bolting off gives you a 20m surprise advantage and gets you past 100m.

I’m a woman. To me, being harassed and threatened are two different things: catcalling is harassment; a stranger getting uncomfortably close or following me is a threat. I mostly just ignore catcalls. I used to sometimes shoot back a one liner but, honestly, guys who are obnoxious are too dumb to get them and yes, it just encourages them. It’s not worth your energy.

I know you're right that it's not worth my energy... it just feels so meek to not respond. I'm out running on my friggin time and in my friggin neighborhood, and I don't want some dumb a s s trying to demean or one-up me to assert his dominance.

I'm trying harder lately to respond without anger or wit or sarcasm, because I don't want to be entertaining. I'd prefer to look dead at guys and tell them to stop being obnoxious, because I want them to know the schtick is old and lame. Hard to do when you've got adrenaline going... and who knows if it would ever make a difference.

rare wrote:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-45337810

The author’s comments about Letsrun are about spot on, but also reports that 4% of male runners are harassed on runs, which is almost definitely false (depending on the definition of harassment, of course).

Are you saying that less than 4% of male runners are harassed? You're a fool if you are.

The number refers to a LetsRun poll. How many of typical 16 minute 5K fantasists here with model wives and million dollar salaries would admit to being 'harassed' on runs?

I'm a male hobby jogger, 45, muscular physique. I get 'harassed' on almost every run, if you mean 'harassed' to include comments or 'looks' that I'd rather not experience.

Very often I get females (usually in groups) shouting something about my physique and if I don't smile back they follow it with an insult. More commonly, I get idiots - male and female - just making snarky comments. I get lots of disgusting fat whales looking at me with disgust as though any sweat on my brow or sign of exertion justifies their life of obesity and big macs and cola in front of NetFlix (followed by heart disease at 50).

Not that I'm comparing this crap to the fate of the poor girl who was murdered, but nothing compares to a jogger being murdered or raped, and it's so rare that it makes worldwide headlines when it happens (out of the tens or hundreds of millions of men and women who run every day).

Of course, the femiskanks will exploit isolated and tragic cases to push their oppression narrative.

oke wrote:

[quote]

... it just feels so meek to not respond. I'm out running on my friggin time and in my friggin neighborhood, and I don't want some dumb a s s trying to demean or one-up me to assert his dominance.

I'm trying harder lately to respond without anger or wit or sarcasm, because I don't want to be entertaining. I'd prefer to look dead at guys and tell them to stop being obnoxious, because I want them to know the schtick is old and lame. Hard to do when you've got adrenaline going... and who knows if it would ever make a difference.

There’s nothing you can say that would teach a catcalling idiot something his parents never managed to teach him. The cruder they are, the less of an effect anything you say will have on them, and letting your anger shows just gives them more satisfaction.

Stick to an eye roll for your own bit of gratification and save your wit for your smart and funny male friends who will appreciate it. Use your adrenaline to run faster.

We had a dog once; we loved him to death but I swear he was the simplest minded creature who barked at everything, included his own behind when he passed wind. To this day, when someone being stupid gets to me, my husband says, “It’s just Rufus barking. Would you get mad at Rufus?” Works every time.

catcalling women is unironically the best way to correct their poor behavior in modern society, i'm considering starting to do it more often and i'm guessing it will result in success

Question for the female posters here as we actually seem to have a thread that is leading to some constructive criticism:

I'm a 31 year old male and do most of my miles on very popular roads/paths but as winter and fall come around the foot traffic starts to dwindle and incidents of harassment tends to go on the uptick, especially towards female runners. I typically hear of about 1-2 assaults on female runners on my area each year. I figure it will probably only be a matter of time before I stumble across a situation like this because I don't run with headphones or lights when it's dark out and tend to run at hours of the day where the paths are less used so I think I have a better chance of being aware of a situation like this before the aggressor is aware of my presence.

1. What is my best response if I see somebody being harassed and the runner is aware of it?

2. What is the best response if the runner is unaware of the person lurking/leering at said runner?

I have thought about these situations and always figured alerting said runner would be step number one and confronting and trying to embarrass the offending party would be the best way to deescalate the situation but never have decided what the best approach would be to help the person being harassed or possibly assaulted.

Aside from one or two posts, this whole thread has been focused on what a woman was doing, or where she was running, or what she should do to fight back.

The main problem here is the men who are harassing people.

Whether or not women should wear headphones might be a meaningful individual choice, but the broader societal discussion should focus on the messages we send to the boys who grow up to be men who can't respect the women around them. Men are often taught to suppress emotions and act tough, which leads many to distorted relationships with women. This is not inevitable, though.

Toxic Masculinity wrote:

Aside from one or two posts, this whole thread has been focused on what a woman was doing, or where she was running, or what she should do to fight back.

The main problem here is the men who are harassing people.

Whether or not women should wear headphones might be a meaningful individual choice, but the broader societal discussion should focus on the messages we send to the boys who grow up to be men who can't respect the women around them. Men are often taught to suppress emotions and act tough, which leads many to distorted relationships with women. This is not inevitable, though.

-1 for the misandrist witch.

What evidence do you have that women are more likely to be harassed than men (apart from the LetsRun poll)? You use one or two isolated cases in a billion to blacken half the population of the world and you wonder why men are getting angry at feminists?

Why are you allowed to say something like 'toxic masculinity' and yet you'd be torn to shreds if you said 'toxic hispanic culture' or such like, or blamed this murder on immigrants rather than men in general? The right-wing are getting flack for exploiting this case to push their anti-immigration stance, and maybe that's a good thing, or maybe it's a bad thing, but how is it that if we generalize even more (ie instead of blaming hispanic men, we blame ALL men) it's suddenly alright?

A woman can rely on the protection of men in the very, very rare cases that she is seriously harassed or assaulted by a man in public. Not sure the same can be said of a male jogger.

Men are sometimes attacked whilst jogging as well. True, usually by other men, but as I said, at least women will be protected by other men.

The following made a few news sites for a day, then was forgotten :

I’m going to qualify my opinion by saying that I’m 43, don’t think that a guy opening the door for me is some BS micro-aggression, and I don’t get offended easily.

I’ve been running for +/-30 years. I’ve had men do things for me ranging from alerting me to creepy attention to flat out punching a guy who’d touched me inappropriately. I actually married that last one (the puncher, not the punchee).

If you feel there’s a reason to act or just say something, you should. It’s nothing less that you’d do for your sister/girlfriend/mom/daughter. I imagine once in a great while a woman may accuse you of being patronizing or a male chauvinist or some such — I know it’s happened to my male friends. Move on and keep being a good guy. Just like obnoxious creeps don’t represent most men, women with a chip on their shoulder don’t represent my gender.

Toxic Masculinity wrote:

Aside from one or two posts, this whole thread has been focused on what a woman was doing, or where she was running, or what she should do to fight back.

I’m not going to reread the entire thread to find one or two thoughtless posts because I seriously need to get off this forum and get to work, but really — serously? “Toxic Masculinity”? That’s your response to the guys who have responded to this thread with ideas on how to make women running alone safer?

You do understand that men who hurt women (and vice versa) are neither the norm nor likely to respond to “broader societal discussion,” right?

Fomenting divisiveness serves no one.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

I read a study saying a lot of attackers ask something first and recommended women completely ignored them as it forms a psychological wall.

So you read a study that quotes how attackers "recommend" their potential prey respond? You have to understand victimizers have a script made up in their heads. They rehearse this stuff over and over in their minds- and they have expectations about the way things will go down. They get pleasure out of people's anguish and pain. You are mistaken if you think they are self aware. They THINK completely ignoring them is the way to go. But in reality that is why they lash out in the first place. They think they are invisible and invincible. They want to be invisible and invincible. They want a victim.

The best psychological wall is encountering a person making it clear they do not intend to tolerate your s$it.

People want to make lewd gestures or threaten me? Be prepared for me to unleash my wrath on you. Because it isn't inviting. And it amounts to full out warfare. May the best (wo)man win. She has.

from the article:

After Runner's World published Ms Hamilton's story in 2017, male runners online began talking.

Responses on the popular Let's Run online forum ranged from "all runners get heckled" to "just get a treadmill".

Most women who replied noted that their fears were due to sexual comments and inappropriate behaviours.

"You have no idea what it's like to be a female runner and have to be cautious about running in certain areas or by yourself for fear of getting attacked," a woman wrote.

Glad to see the site receive the cesspool distinction it deserves. This message board is 75% trolling idiotic responses by juvenile young men, thanks exclusively to the anonymity afforded by a lack of user profiles. The site owners know this is true and yet do not implement a login system because 1. they don't make investments in site infrastructure and 2. they know it'll cut down on ad revenue accrued by page views.

chad thunderbuns wrote:

catcalling women is unironically the best way to correct their poor behavior in modern society, i'm considering starting to do it more often and i'm guessing it will result in success

Try it. You do it to the wrong person, you may be in for a real surprise dipsh&t.