My plan going from sub47 to sub40 at the 10k

I will be the first to say it but I didn't really have a massive amount of structure to run sub40. Just 20ish miles a week, intervals when I felt like it and not quite all out weekly 5k's (parkrun) which looking back would have been tempos. On the mileage/plan you have listed I would say you are either going to progress veey fast if you can keep it up or crash and burn from injury or get sick of doing so much so soon.

I am doing this milage and structure for the past 20 months so maybe (unfortunately just maybe!) that should not be an issue.

It's just... I haven't seen improvement on the past one year (for example my 80%maxHR pace is exactly the 5:55 - 6:10 min/k this year than it was 12 months ago), and I figured: is it the plan, or is it me, or is it both?

Am I doing too much running? To little running? Too fast? Too slow? Too much weights (they are because of obstacle course races btw.)? Am I too heavy to improve from this point? And many other question marks...

At 6'1" 200 lbs. you cannot believe 10000m is your best event. Race 200m.

If you have been running this.mileage for a year and seen no improvements in race time then I think something is wrong, if you were running 36ish then I could understand a plateau but not at 47mins, this mileage should see huge jumps from there even without structure.

Where do you see he's been doing this for a year? It looks like this is his future plan. It would be good to know, OP, what you've done the past year or so, how high your mileage has been, and what your PRs/recent times are at other distances, if you know any of them. Did you run a 51s 400m in high school? Were you more likely to struggle to run a 30s for 200m? All the lifting will help somewhat, probably. I guess. Don't really know. You're certainly not at an ideal weight for improving your time over 10k, so part of this will come down to how much muscle mass you're willing to sacrifice to improve your chances of getting to 40:00. You could shed 8kg/20lbs over the next six months and that would help you a lot. What sort of timeframe have you allowed yourself to try to accomplish this? Or, put another way, is there a specific race or time period that you're building towards? 23 weeks of 6, 8, 10 x 400m sounds really dull and in general, a 1s incremental improvement in speed is hard to hit and not terribly helpful. Variety would probably help you as would intervals at longer distances--something like building up to 8x1km @ slightly faster than 10k race pace, with 3 mins in between. I agree that a year of this should lead to a lot of improvement. I'd try to lose 20 pounds and run longer intervals, especially earlier in the training, and try to bang out a 43:00 10k next summer. Then let us know how things are going.

Effillo wrote:

If you have been running this.mileage for a year and seen no improvements in race time then I think something is wrong, if you were running 36ish then I could understand a plateau but not at 47mins, this mileage should see huge jumps from there even without structure.

Two posts up he says he has been doing it for 20 months. Initially I thought this was a future plan to start from scratch but it sounds as if he has been running the mileage but now wants to structure it. My point was if he has been running this mileage for 20 months then there isn't the sort of progress you would expect if he is stuck on 47mins.

Sorry--totally missed that post.

There's definitely something wrong, OP. Either your lifting is actively hindering your running progress or your workouts are managing to run you into the ground. Have you been churning out those 400s every week, sometimes 2 x week? At this point it doesn't look like you're going to improve much without dropping some kilos, although even so your fitness should have improved with that sort of dedicated training.

[quote]Effillo wrote:

Two posts up he says he has been doing it for 20 months. Initially I thought this was a future plan to start from scratch but it sounds as if he has been running the mileage but now wants to structure it. My point was if he has been running this mileage for 20 months then there isn't the sort of progress you would expect if he is stuck on 47mins.

[quote]Er... wrote:

Some people are afraid to race. They barely hit their training pace.

First of all, thanks for all the advice, I did not see that coming... ;)

THAT is exactly why I came here, I do think something is wrong, and I wanted to make sure it's not the plan.

I wasn't into running, only as an additional sport for karate once or twice a week. I think I could do a 60sec 400 at the age of 18 (and 170 lb), and I remember a 2400m PR of 7:50 which is 3:15 k (5:15 mile) pace. Nothing special, but a bit faster than the average guy at that age.

The past 20 months, as Effillo pointed out, was spent like the thread starter post.

There's not a specific time frame, I think 1 or maybe 2 years would be enough to reach the sub40k. First, I thought 6 months, but than I started to be honest and realistic with myself...

Hmmm, I thought 400s are better earlier to get the speed benefits and later I would/should go 800-1200 (maybe 2000s?) later. So it's the other way around?

This would have been my future plan after doing the thread starter post stuff, since I thought: first endurance with the easy and highish milage AND speed with the 400s, and then "combine" the benefits for 1k intervals.

Good point... To think about it honestyl, I think sometimes I miss the following two principals:

- train hard, recover harder

- train, don't strain

I should focus more on how much load and/or how many reps and/or what pace and/or how many consecutive training days my body can handle, or how much rest it needs... :(

I don't get this: am I doing my training at a too fast, or too slow pace, or should I race more to give my body and mind racing/stress conditions and situations.

So to summarize it:

- loose some muscle weigth

- keep on grinding and take easy on the easy days

- 1 or 2 hard sessions a week: longer intervals now (1k s), faster shorter (400s) getting closer and closer to a given target road 10k (no date yet, in 6-12 months)

- recover, recover, recover

- have a 43ish realistic goal, and plan the paces (repetition, interval, tempo) around that. after reaching it, I can target the sub40. Otherwise, if i target the sub40 now, I will "run myself into the ground."

- race more(?)

Kumite wrote:

I am doing this milage and structure for the past 20 months so maybe (unfortunately just maybe!) that should not be an issue.

It's just... I haven't seen improvement on the past one year (for example my 80%maxHR pace is exactly the 5:55 - 6:10 min/k this year than it was 12 months ago), and I figured: is it the plan, or is it me, or is it both?

Am I doing too much running? To little running? Too fast? Too slow? Too much weights (they are because of obstacle course races btw.)? Am I too heavy to improve from this point? And many other question marks...

Basically, you're not doing enough running. You don't need weights/cross training etc to improve from 47 to 40 for 10k. All the 400m interval sessions are working your anaerobic system when you have a very small base. Speed is not your problem, endurance is. If you can run 400m in under 80 secs you have enough 'speed'. What you can't do is run 25 x 400m in 96 seconds with no rests. Work out a plan to gradually increase your weekly distance to 50 miles (80k). Run 6 or 7 days a week. Most days go out for an hour, running aerobically. On one day of the week do a tempo run or short race. On another day of the week run relaxed intervals with short float recoveries. Such as 8 x 400m with 200m float recoveries, not jogging.

The other thing which would help a lot would be to go from 90 kg down to 80 kg or less, which would be lean for your height. That alone will take 5 minutes off your 10k time.

I'm similar build to you (6'2 / 200lbs / 10%bf) but a bit older. But my running didn't get decent until I focused on it at age 40.

- Mostly what I did was run easy 3-4 times per week of 30-60mins.

- A longer run on the weekend.

- A parkrun every two weeks.

Within two months I was hitting 42mins25 on a 10K ... having never previously broken 46.

When I was younger I played lots of sports like 5-a-side, basketball, tennis. If you're competitive, all of those push your anaerobic system with lots of short sprints. And in turn that pushes the lactate threshold down. In an event like 10K - LT is critical.

Nothing wrong with have a long term goal of breaking 40 ... but yes do your training paces in stages. If you're at 47, look up the paces in Jack Daniels or Greg McMillan's calculator and train according to that. When you're running 45, use the paces for that. When you're running running 43, use the paces for that etc, etc.

What he said here is perfect.

Another giver of +1 wrote:

Work out a plan to gradually increase your weekly distance to 50 miles (80k). Run 6 or 7 days a week. Most days go out for an hour, running aerobically. On one day of the week do a tempo run or short race. On another day of the week run relaxed intervals with short float recoveries. Such as 8 x 400m with 200m float recoveries, not jogging.

The other thing which would help a lot would be to go from 90 kg down to 80 kg or less, which would be lean for your height. That alone will take 5 minutes off your 10k time.

[quote]Er... wrote:

I'd try to lose 20 pounds and run longer intervals, especially earlier in the training, and try to bang out a 43:00 10k next summer. Then let us know how things are.

^THIS

It seems a nice plan to run a fast 400.

2/10 for the elaborate post.

Er..., Another giver of +1, Uhhh, No secret workout, Effillo: thanks fdr the help, I'll change my training according to your suggestions! ;)

Wrong schedule wrote:

It seems a nice plan to run a fast 400.

2/10 for the elaborate post.

Could you please be more specific? Or is this just a troll reply?

You’re overthinking it. A 40min 10k isn’t slow, but it’s not fast either. You don’t have to cross train, lift, do abs, and plan out your 400m repeat paces 8 weeks in advance. Just run.

At 1.87m and 90kg and supposedly 12%ish body fat, you are plenty strong to break 40. You’re probably better off not lifting or doing abs for a while. That will help you lose weight. Get down to 80kg and 8-9% body fat and you’re almost there. You will actually look better at this weight too.

Forget about cross training, especially if you have the tendency to bulk up easily. Maybe do some low resistance biking if you really want to do something, but use it as a form of active recovery.

Running. 5 times a week. 3 normal runs, 45-75min. Do at least one of them with varying paces. Progressive, or do some “up-tempo” blocks in them.

2 workouts a week. 400s are ok, but I’m guessing you need a bit more specific stuff to get used to the pain of a 10k. Do one shorter workout (e.g. 400s with 100jog recovery) and one longer (1000s, 1600s, 2000s, or some sort of ladder workout, e.g. 800-1200-1600-1200-800). Total fast running can be built up from 4K to maybe 8k. Short intervals are faster than race pace, long ones are race pace or a bit slower depending on distance.

That should work. Try doing this for 2-3 months and see how you feel and maybe try a race. It’s best to finish workouts feeling like you could’ve done one more repeat. Don’t worry about total time run or mileage. The goal is to run a faster 10k. Not achieve specific training goals.

I have a couple years of coaching experience and was a 4:05miler

I agree with most of the posts on here (especially another giver of +1, who's spot on) so I'd just add:

90kg is heavy - 12% bf is fine and you're probably overall very strong and fit, but lugging 90kg around is huge. I'm the same height as you and 64kg and feel I could lose 5kg and get faster as a result (my bf is higher). Power/weight ratio feels amazing when you're strong but light.

If your HR hasn't come down in 20 months maybe you're not recovering well. How's your sleep? How has your resting HR changed in 20 months?

Get a copy of Daniels Running Formula and use the paces for your level (47m 10K is VDOT 43 which means LT pace 4:49/km). You seem to say you can run around 4:40 for around an hour in training, which by itself is faster than a 47 10K.

When you race do you really race or do you basically do a tempo run in a crowd? Some people don't realise how much more they can/should push themselves in a race compared with training. If you're really going for a place or time you can't be afraid of exposing yourself to pain. Sometimes a pb hurts and sometimes it doesn't, but either way you're doing something quite different to a training run. This could be why you're still on 47 - you might already be a 43 runner but haven't pushed yourself that hard yet. If you haven't done a recent 5K flat out effort, do one at parkrun and use that time to update your VDOT (Daniels) and use those paces. E.g. if you get (as I suspect you would) around 21, that's equivalent to 43:30 10K.

What are your 100/200/400 times? Maybe you're a sprinter.

Do leg strength after a run, not before

As others said, you've already got enough muscle and basic speed. Work on endurance (easy runs, long runs), then LT (tempos, cruise intervals), then aerobic power (VO2max intervals). Are you top heavy by any chance?

pylon deluxe wrote:

When you race do you really race or do you basically do a tempo run in a crowd? Some people don't realise how much more they can/should push themselves in a race compared with training. If you're really going for a place or time you can't be afraid of exposing yourself to pain. Sometimes a pb hurts and sometimes it doesn't, but either way you're doing something quite different to a training run.

+1

Treat a race seriously and "switch on" to the idea that you'll be running hard and fast. Get to the race early enough to do a proper warm-up including strides. Do you race a lot or not enough? I recommend racing weekly or fortnightly if races are available and racing short (800m to 5k). There's a training effect from racing - often it will take a number of races in succession (weekly) to get to your best time.

You're (and of course lots of others) damn good :O

I do tend to "give up" before I actually should stop by muscle. I think I'm not used to running with much lactic acid pain and/or I have a really low anaerobic tolerance. I assume the suggested by many of you longer, 1000-2000 intervals (simple, ladder, pyramid or reverse pyramid, whatever) would do some mind-training magic with me besides the physical benefits.

This wasn't the case until 1-2 month from now, only for my one hour easies. Looking back, finishing the intervals, tempo and/or long runs, I ended up more tired than I should have been, feeling in my legs 2-3 days later too (some uberDOMS every week...)

Yep, recovery hasn't been OK - or maybe the training might have been too much as I've mentioned above. This august was the first month I didn't fininsh my 2 hour long easy runs in pain. Now, I'm just exausted, but not in muscle pain (which pain definitely wasn't from injury, just too overreaching too many times maybe).

I don't measure resting HR regularly, I measure only during training and a few times I measure my bloodpressure once or twice a month. I think it's the same as always: around 60-65, right after relaxing for 5 minutes in the bed.

On point, again, like Keeping it simple suggested: looking back: I don't dig deep on races. I do it during 400s, but I think I'm not handling it on a longer event like the 2k... :(

Maybe I should end every offweek (3 weeks on, 1 week 60-70% off) with a 5k race and/or a time trial withOUT wathing my HR-watch. So there will be a week of some kind of a "taper", which would be anyway because of the offweek, and I get a well-rested, all-out 5k stimulus.

I do max efforts in the weightroom to avoid more bulking, but get the strength benefits, once a week in a morning. And at the evening, 8-10 hours later a really easy 75% maxHR steady slow run for 60-90 minutes. I might do some endurance strength after one or two of my easy run. And by endurance strength I mean 20+ repetitions, like jump squats, split squat jumps, glutes bridge, calfs.

I've just finished a sub75% maxHR 1 hour easy run: 6:10-6:50 K (10:20-11:00 mile pace). What "slow" is too slow? Should I run my easy-s faster? As I've mentioned, sub80%maxHR pace is 5:55-6:10k (9:34-9:57 mile).

I'm all around heavy :D I'd describe my body composition as "even": every muscle is big, but not "body builder large". Maybe think of a basketball player, or a 200 runner. (But I do not want to run 200s, 10k-hm is what gets me "off" after work, family, responsibilities, so life... :) ).

This is what others mentioned earlier, so I do get the idea, I could get faster in a short time without any change of training, just by getting mentally stronger because of racing all outs every now and then.