Could Coe have gone sub 13 in the 5k?

Horwill is full of crap.

First, who does repeat 2:08 800's with 45 second rests "when returning from injury" ? Is he joking? No wonder the guy was injured if that is considered rehab.

Second, what world class athlete sees someone at the track, wanders over, and asks "can I join in"? That would never happen for even a serious sub-elite racer, much less Coe.

Horwill's entire system is ridiculous and no clean human athlete could sustain it with best results for any significant length of time.

As for Coe, he most definitely could not run sub-13. With a supposed 45-point 400 leg on a relay and a 1:41 800, there is no way his muscle fiber composition is anywhere near enough slow twitch to be a sub-13 guy.

Wilson Kipketer just barely broke 4:00 for the mile. Coe, of course, was under that, but 7 x 800 is a different animal from a 5,000 meter race.

Sounds like you have figured the impossibility and possibility of all human actions. Good for you!

And as far as your comment of:

"Wilson Kipketer just barely broke 4:00 for the mile. Coe, of course, was under that....."

Understatement of the year?? Yeah, I think 3:47 or 3:46 (his 3:29 1500m converts to a 3:46) qualifies as being "under that(4:00)." Yeah.....it does.

JACKASS.

Darrell Robinson wrote:

Sounds like you have figured the impossibility and possibility of all human actions. Good for you!

And as far as your comment of:

"Wilson Kipketer just barely broke 4:00 for the mile. Coe, of course, was under that....."

Understatement of the year?? Yeah, I think 3:47 or 3:46 (his 3:29 1500m converts to a 3:46) qualifies as being "under that(4:00)." Yeah.....it does.

JACKASS.

How delightfully refreshing!

Spontaneous belligerence in action at Letsrun.com! This is new!

Out of curiosity, I wonder how it is that this poster can in fact agree that Coe's 3:47.33 (funny; he accuses the other and can't even get Coe's time right) is under 4:00 and yet still find sufficient fault with this evaluation to let fly some oaths and execrations.

You gotta love this site! Yippee!

Having met Horwill a number of times I can tell you that your assessment of him is is wrong. If he says that' what happened that's what he believes happened.

The 13:11 guy he is talking about is Tim Hutchings. Twice world x-country silver medalist and a training animal. 64 laps target pace for 7x800m off 45 seconds would have been reasonable for him as a guide before he started. It doesn't say he made them that day nor what stage on his comeback he was on. Horwill probably put that in there as an excuse for his athlete being spanked anyway.

Don't forget Coe ran 7:50 indoors for 3k on his own in the only 3k he officially ran as a well known which was off season and no more than a training excercise. The question is reasonable and being that I have no reason to doubt anything FH says it's an intriguing, if hypothetical, talking point.

Heck No:

Second, what world class athlete sees someone at the track, wanders over, and asks "can I join in"? That would never happen for even a serious sub-elite racer, much less Coe.

If Coe was at the track to do a certain kind fo session and spotted Tim Hutchings warming up why wouldn't he ask him? Athletes are athletes, world class or not.

Darren W wrote:

Out of curiosity, I wonder how it is that this poster can in fact agree that Coe's 3:47.33 (funny; he accuses the other and can't even get Coe's time right) is under 4:00 and yet still find sufficient fault with this evaluation to let fly some oaths and execrations.

You gotta love this site! Yippee!

Firstly, DUMBASS.....I said his time was 3:47 OR 3:46 and EXPLAINED what I meant by that. Want me to explain it to you AGAIN?? Ok, 3:47 was his mile pr, but he ran a 3:29 1500, which converts to 3:46. But that is a conversion. So, I was calling his mile "3:47 or 3:46 AND EXPLAINED WHY. His 1500 I would say is superior and worth 3:46, making it ever MORE under 4:00.

GET IT ??

Secondly, I found fault with his evaluation because to say Coe was "under 4:00" and lumping him in with Kipketer as far as mile accomplishments go is like me saying:

'distance runners have no speed! Some Japanese marathoners (I don't know, pick someone) can barely ran "under 28:00" for 10k! Now Bekele and Geb of course broke 28:00 before....."

GET >>>> IT??? It is a silly understatement. Coe is one of the greatest milers of all time. The mile is a primarily aerobic event. Apparently it has now come to light that he ran a good amount of mileage, and as the first post on here points out, he could some some sick 800 repeats with short rest workouts. So dismissing Coe's 5k potential is silly. Maybe 13:00 is a stretch, but guy he ran that workout with ran 13:11, and Moorcroft, another Brit who did not do tons of mileage, had good speed, raced the mile a lot, ran 13:00.

Did I really have to explain all of that to you?

Isn't El G a 1500/mile racer? He is certainly moving up to championship quality 5k's. Why can't Coe, also a 1500 runner, move up to a quality 5k as well? The training albeit different, in essence is quite similar. So if Coe subsituted a few speed days with tempo days... who knows? But a sub 13 is a bit of a stretch; maybe a sub 13:10?

what was the 5k world record when coe retired

12:58.39

If he concentrated on the 5k, I believe Coe could have been the best in the world at the time (with his father's tutelage, of course). He was training as hard as anyone, but much smarter! Of course, there was no need for Coe to concentrate on longer distances-he was the best in the world at the 800 and 1500, and was running sub-1:45 until his retirement.

Steve Cram, a 1:42 & 3:29 man, ran 13:28 in windy conditions in his only senior 5000m race some years after his best form had gone.

Ovett, a 47 1:44 & 3:30 man, ran 13:20 for 5k well into his 30s and won the Commonweath Title at the distance.

Darrell Robinson wrote:

of:

"Wilson Kipketer just barely broke 4:00 for the mile. Coe, of course, was under that....."

Understatement of the year?? Yeah, I think 3:47 or 3:46 (his 3:29 1500m converts to a 3:46) qualifies as being "under that(4:00)." Yeah.....it does.

JACKASS.

Kipketer never ran close to 3:30 in the 1500, never mind close to 3:50 in the mile, moron.

You better run mate... someone is about to tear your post to shreds. Either that or you should quickly reread the post you were responding to and make corrections....

BJP wrote:

You better run mate... someone is about to tear your post to shreds. Either that or you should quickly reread the post you were responding to and make corrections....

Regardless of Fact Checker's error (Coe, not Kipketer, was being discussed; a minor error, but one he'll surely get ripped for by self-righteous loners whose highlight in life is correcting other people's hastily crafted typos. How sad.), Darrell Robinson is a ridiculous piece garbage.

How someone can work himself into a fit while AGREEING that Coe's 3:47 is under 4:00, I'll never know, but it is surely the sign of a troubled individual.

ruler wrote:

Darrell Robinson is a ridiculous piece garbage.

How someone can work himself into a fit while AGREEING that Coe's 3:47 is under 4:00, I'll never know, but it is surely the sign of a troubled individual.

sigh..........

Did you even READ my posts?? Did I NOT explain to everyone that the issue had nothing to with agreeing or disagreeing with the undeniable fact that Coe broke 4:00 for the mile. It was the understated WAY he stated it, and it was the WAY he grouped Coe with Kipketer as far as mile ability.....

Oh forget it.

( I guess my oh-so-subtle(not really) point was just too hard for some like you to comprehend, for the love of God. )

ruler wrote:

How someone can work himself into a fit while AGREEING that Coe's 3:47 is under 4:00, I'll never know, but it is surely the sign of a troubled individual.

I was thinking the same thing... lol

I think what is silly is that many people are speculating about what he couldn't do without really knowing much about his background except that he ran the mile and 800 competitively as a senior.

He ran cross county and road relays for a club for pre-season workouts. He did run many tempo runs to get ready for his track work during the competive season.

"Peter Coe was a believer in speed as the ultimate pre-requisite to success. Coe was never a practitioner of high mileage. He had his young son running steep hills, but drove him back down to the bottom to save the wear and tear on his legs. In his book "Running Free, Seb wrote, "I needed leg speed. My stride leg length was never a problem, but on occasion, maintaining a fast cadence was." Said Peter, "You can no longer go up in distance to hide from speed. It's speed, speed, speed." Even his "base work" running was at a very quick 5:15 to 5:30 per mile tempo. Through his youth, Seb was preparing for the searing races he would run as an adult."

As a junior he ran his training at 5:15-5:30 pace. He also ran right around 8:15 (maybe a little under or over; could have been 8:17) while 16 or so. He also won many races at 3000 and cross country as a junior. His first national title was actually at 3000m at the age of 17. It was at this point that his father decided to go down in distance as opposed to up, realizing his limiting factor would be his speed and not his endurance of which he was already showing superior ability.

Read about the first time he ran the mile competitively as a senior (his first serious attempt in his mind, although he had run many 1500's and miles before this). He ran 3:49 or 3:50 and said it felt quite easy. He said that he was getting ready to feel bad at 1200 or so, but it never came. He later set the WR for both the 1500/mile in 78.

We are talking about an incredible talent. Should he have decided (or his father in all reality) to focus on the 5000 we would be talking about how Coe ran WR's for the 5000.

http://sali.freeservers.com/sports/other_sports/players/sebcoe.html

http://www.sporting-heroes.net/athletics-heroes/displayhero.asp?HeroID=154

He did run 7:54 in 1986 however that is the fastest Coe has run for the 3K. But I agree if he focused on the event it would neat to see him run it full out.

Food for thought wrote:

Don't forget Coe ran 7:50 indoors for 3k on his own in the only 3k he officially ran as a well known which was off season and no more than a training excercise. The question is reasonable and being that I have no reason to doubt anything FH says it's an intriguing, if hypothetical, talking point.

On March 31, 1984 Coe ran a road relay leg for his club Haringey in 16:16. The distance was 3 3/4 miles. This is approx. 4:19/mile. Probably worth 4:15 had the distance been 3.1 miles or 5K. I don't have the charts in front of me but 12:45 for 3 miles must equate to approx. 13:10 for 5K. So he was capable of 13:10 on road in heavier than normal shoes compared to track spike without specific pace making. Hmmmm. Source is page 78-79 in the book, Coming Back, by David Miller; mostly about the years 82-84 of Coe's career.

In Oct. 1978 when he was almost exclusively(one mile track race per year) a 800m runner, he won a 4 mile race against such people as Eamonn Coghlan, Mike McLeod, Steve Kenyon and Chris Spedding, all 5K or 10K types. He averaged 4:29 for this race and beat Brendon Fosters course record by 9 seconds. This not only at a point in his career where he was low mileage because of his emphasis on 800m but at a time of year when that mileage would have been even lower. Source is the Coe-Ovett File; a compilation of all the articles and photos that appeared in Athletics wekly over the years 1973-1981 of the famous duo.

The only senior 5K that Coe ran outdoors on the track was on May 11th, 1980 in the Yorkshire championships. There were no other world class runners in the field. The conditions were reportedly very windy and cold. With no pace making and those conditions it is no wonder Coe ran 14:06. I would suggest many 13:00 5K runners would not do much better under those conditions, especially without pace making as all the European meets now have. This 14:06 5K PR of Coe's is used by Noakes in the Lore of Running book as an example of an athlete who has tremendous 800m and 1500m speed but a severe drop in performance as he moves to the longer distances. Noakes compares DAniel Komens' 83 second faster 5K PR to Coe's as an example of "a degree of of fatigue resistance previously unmatched....".

This is very misleading. Fact is Coe never ran in a world class 5K field in Zurich or Brussels with sub 13:00 pace making. Take the Coe of 1980 and 1981 let him specifically prepare for a 5K at Zurich with pace making and he would have been significantly under 13:00.