Struggling at Half Marathons...why?

Maybe it just wasn't your day. All your workouts are faster than I'd run but your half marathon time is slower. A few thoughts :

1) 70 degrees, humid, and last 2 miles uphill isn't a PR race.

2) There's no need to run your long runs at 7:35. It's a waste of energy.

3) More miles at your half marathon goal pace each week will help. I follow the Hanson half marathon plan which has 7 miles at goal pace (on Thursdays) and 6 miles worth of intervals (on Tuesdays) at slightly faster than goal pace. The energy you save from slowing down your long run can be used on the two goal pace days.

4) Someone said to start your marathon at 7:50 pace. I think that's a great plan. There's nothing better than hitting mile 21 and knowing you're going to finish strong. Then you can run by feel and without fear. Much better than starting a hair too fast and it becoming a death march near the end.

Age 39....typically running 50 to 60 miles a week. I've switched to more threshold training in the past year in an effort to get under 1:30 for a half. Last week, I ran 1:35...and I'm quite disappointed in the result.

Some workout stats....

- I have done long runs of 17, 18, and 19 miles. All of them have been around a comfortable 7:35 pace.

- I recently did 8x1000 at 6:00 pace with 1 minute standing rests.

- I also recently did 5x5 minutes at 6:06 pace with 1 minute standing rests.

- I've done 4x1000 at 5:32 pace with 2 minute jogs.

All of these workouts would lead me to believe that I was capable of running under 90 minutes....but I can only manage a 7:10ish pace for a full half basically falling apart at mile 10.

Can anyone tell me what my issue is and how to correct it?

I'm running the Chicago Marathon in the fall and I was initially targeting a 3:15...but I'm thinking 3:25 to 3:30 is more accurate at this point.

Honestly 70 can still be quite warm for a half marathon. I don't like to race anything long if it's going to be over 60. The workouts look good. Maybe add some variety to your long runs? It can be easy enough to do a small to medium amount of VO2 max reps with rest. Instead of long, steady but easy long runs try to add some progression. Examples:

15-16: 4 easy, 4 moderate, 4 tempo (add a warmup + c/d)

18: 2 up, 4 tempo, 6 easy to moderate, 4 tempo, 2 down

14: 2-3 up, 8 tempo- 4 @ MP, 4 @ HMP, 2-3 down

Workouts like this 2 to 8 weeks out from a goal race can provide a good stimulus. Also longer reps on workout days like miles, 2 miles, 3 miles: 6 x mile, 3 x 2 miles, 2 x 3 miles, etc.

bump

Without doing the math on those paces of your workouts, when you said you fell apart at mile 10 it only means you started too fast. Also, you picked the worst possible time of year for a longer distance race.

It sounds like you are racing through your training runs, which leaves you burned out for your races,

Doing any longer (15-30 minute) tempo runs? If not, you should.

If you want to do a good half marathon, train specifically for it. Focus on your fall marathon for now.

slowerthanu wrote:

Doing any longer (15-30 minute) tempo runs? If not, you should.

If you want to do a good half marathon, train specifically for it. Focus on your fall marathon for now.

I have. I did a few longer tempos of 40 minutes at 6:45 pace. Am I just too high on the fast twitch side to pull off a decent distance race?

tl;dr - Get a coach

What do you mean when you say you fall apart at mile 10? Aerobically? Muscle cramps /fatigue? There could be many causes - not enough time spent in training at goal place, overtrained going into the race, the weather conditions weren't favorable, you split a 6 minute mile at the start, etc. There just isn't enough information here.

slowerthanu wrote:

Doing any longer (15-30 minute) tempo runs? If not, you should.

15-30 minutes isn't a "longer" tempo run, it's a short one

My splits were:

6:44 (downhill)

7:08

6:57

7:03

7:14

6:56

7:17

7:13

7:00

7:21

7:25

7:41 (uphill)

7:42 (uphill)

I also won this race (low turnout) and had the lead the entire time, which made it not the ideal situation for pacing. Whether was humid...but not hot at all. Maybe 70 degrees tops.

LetsEatDoughnutsInstead wrote:

What do you mean when you say you fall apart at mile 10? Aerobically? Muscle cramps /fatigue?

Just fatigue. Ran out of energy and couldn't hold the low 7 pace anymore.

1:30 pace is around 6:50 per mile. It sounds like you are not running enough miles at your goal race pace. You should be able to run 7-9 uninterrupted miles at your goal race pace while staying in control of the workout. 7 should be easy. 9 should be kind of hard - don't be tempted to sprint at the end. The three interval sessions you listed were too fast and too short to do you much benefit for a half marathon. Alternatively, do something like 8 x 1 mile at race pace with 2 minute recovery jogs. This may be an easier workout to digest until you get comfortable with race pace, especially in the heat of summer.

I don't see any true tempo training, like 40min to 60min tempo runs. The training you posted is long interval based. Those type of workouts will definitely help you in 1 mile/5k races, but you're going to need some serious tempo work for greater distances, especially if you want to run faster than 1:30 for the half.

Dr, Jack Daniels stated that tempo pace and half marathon pace are pretty much equivalent, because tempo pace is a pace that you should be able to hold for up to 60 mins, and elite runners will run an entire half marathon at tempo pace.

So if you can only manage 7:10 pace for the half, then that is basically your tempo pace, so you are going to have to improve on your tempo training. In order to run sub 1:30 for the half , you are going to have to run at 6:50 pace or faster. You're 20 seconds off that, so you got some work to do.

Your tempo runs should be at 6 - 10 miles. On your next tempo run, go for 6 miles at 5 seconds above your half marathon time, so we are talking 7:05 pace. If you can hold that for at least 6 miles or longer, then move up another 5 seconds in the following week ( or 2 weeks). The object is to get your tempo pace to around 6:45-6:50 pace, where you are comfortable at that pace for for 6- 10 miles. It will take time, and I'm talking at least 3 months(or longer) before you get to the desired level.

You can continue to do your long interval training. Your long interval training is pretty solid. And your long runs are very, very good. So your fast fibers are solid and your slow twitch muscles are solid, but it is your intermediate muscle fibers that are weak, and those are developed through tempo/threshold training. It is your tempo area that is lacking and holding you back.

This the answer I was looking to find. I was able to do 6 miles at 6:45-ish pace a month back, but I cannot sustain it much past 8 miles.

Honestly, I had no real idea "intermediate" fibers actually existed....hence my crap performances in the 10K and above.

TMC92 wrote:

My splits were:

6:44 (downhill)

7:08

6:57

7:03

7:14

6:56

7:17

7:13

7:00

7:21

7:25

7:41 (uphill)

7:42 (uphill)

I also won this race (low turnout) and had the lead the entire time, which made it not the ideal situation for pacing. Whether was humid...but not hot at all. Maybe 70 degrees tops.

Okay, you didn't post this in the beginning. This is very important info, and you stated that you can run a tempo for 40 mins at 6;45 pace. You didn't state that either in your opening post.

So based on that data, you should have been able to run 1:30 or sub with no problem.

After looking at your splits, you went out way too fast at 6:44. Always start out slower than your goal pace for half/marathon races, and build into it. Run the first half with your head and second half with your legs. And then you dropped down to 7:08 and 7:14 as the race progressed in the first half of the race, and you got even slower in the second half of your race. I mean you got terribly slower in the second half.

The second half of your race should have been completely run at your 6:45 tempo pace, since you did tempo training at 6:45 pace with no problem ( based on what you stated).

on your next half marathon, start out at no faster than 7 min pace. And by the 3rd or 4th mile get down to about 6:55 pace, and into the 6th or 7th mile you should be at full tempo of 6:45 to the finish line.

Even more reason to go out slower than tempo>half marathon pace in your race, since you can only hold it for 6 miles, But you can use it as a weapon, since you know you can hold it for 6 miles. But let it be your last 6 miles of a race where you are running that pace, instead of the first 6 miles of a race

- increase your tempo training to be able to hold that 6;45 pace for 8-10 miles ( since you already hold it for 6 miles).

- go out slower in your half marathons.

Intermediate Fibers

Intermediate fibers, also known as fast oxidative-glycolytic fibers, are fast twitch muscle fibers which have been converted via endurance training. These fibers are slightly larger in diameter, have more mitochondria as well as a greater blood supply and MORE ENDURANCE THAN TYPICAL FASTER FIBERS. Most of the body's muscles are composed of these intermediate fibers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_fibers

TMC92 wrote:

Am I just too high on the fast twitch side to pull off a decent distance race?

What are your best recentish performances at different distances from mile to marathon?