Sub 2h30 Fall Marathon

You definitely have a shot. What is your marathon PB and how many have you run?

I coach a small group of guys, and back in 2016 I had one run 70:xx min for HM a few months before a 2:28 full. This year I've got another who ran 72:15 in the HM looking for 2:30 in his debut.

I've been looking back at some of those 2016 sessions from the buildup to get some reference points. Here's some handpicked...

8/5 - 3m up + 10m progression in 55:18 + 3m down (6min/mile ----> 5min/mile)

8/14 - 2hr long with last 30mins steady (5:40-5:45) ~19miles avg 6:19

8/30 - 3m up + 7xmile off 90sec + 3m down (5:16/5:08/5:13/5:07/5:01/4:57/4:49)

9/13 - 3m up + 5min/4min/3min/2min/1min Fartlek (29min) avg 5:26/mile [5mins jog] + 5k hard/progressive in 15:57

9/18 - 20m long with first 10 easy (7:30--6:30), last 10 hard (5:50--5:20). Avg 6:48 for first 10 and 5:36 for last 10.

Ran in the 90s for miles per week for the majority of the buildup.

That was a solid thread. I participated in that one, but ended up injured 5 weeks out from Boston after running a great 15k, which indicated sub 2:30 was a realistic goal.

So I took about 6 weeks off , then started slowly working myself back into volume, and am now scheduled to run Chicago.

My challenge is that I live in Florida and training for a fall marathon is just really challenging in the swamp in the summer. I got up at 5:45 yesterday to do my long run/tempo effort combo, and it was already 80 degrees with a dew point of 78 degrees (an hour before sunrise), so I had to modify my workout by dropping a tempo portion late in the run.

So I have the general need to improve my fitness a bit while dropping about 3-4 pounds over the next 10 weeks, all while in oppressive conditions that make it hard to evaluate exactly how fit I actually am.

Smoove... Have you ever considered doing the warm up and tempo on a treadmill, then the cool down outside one in a while? I've had a similar situation and had some success with that approach. I've also gotten up even earlier and head lamped the warm up and then did the harder miles right before sun up. It's tough and I've had more off days with that approach, but extending the warmup seems to help.I'm not as fast as you, but I've had to train through a lot of Florida-like weather with some decent progress.

Good luck on the sub 2:30!

Thanks for the suggestion. Historically, I have been able to power through the summer in past cycles (NYC 2014 and Chicago 2015) with only a small impact on workout times and only a handful of workouts that ended up dropped or altered. Last summer was the first summer where I noticed a significant challenge in dealing with the heat and humidity. I suspect that is is, in part, age related and that I recently crossed over some threshold where as a middle-aged 46 year old, I am impacted more than I was.

So I think the treadmill suggestion is a good one. I have been thinking about maybe doing it, but this weekend may have been the push that I needed. The last two weeks, I broke my long run efforts up into three smaller chunks of 6-7 miles each, and in between each loop, I jumped into my pool, took in some fluids and salt tablets, then put on dry clothes and trainers. That made things more manageable, but still not manageable enough yesterday to get the second tempo session in.

I like the pool idea - one I'll have to try.

Running Chicago also Smoove. Looking forward to it. Ran 2:35 in Philly in 2016. Don't think I'm quite ready for a shot at sub 2:30, but hoping to try and click off 5:45-5:50's in October. Best of luck with the Florida heat.

Hi Smoove - I know exactly what you mean by training in the heat and humidity, coming from Brazil myself. Tough one. Humidity is the worse, i clearly remember days in where i would leave home to do like a 10 miles tempo and could barely keep 6:00 min pace for a single one, when my race pace was more like 5:30-35 in ideal conditions.

Impressive that you have a shot at sub2h30 at 46 - what are your PRs in the Half and Marathon distances?

As for myself I've run 71:53 and 2:31.52 but that's been a few years already. I am 29 now. My plan is to have a shot at sub 2h30 before turning 30 in December. This year I got very close to PR shape after running 72:15 for the Half (and finish feeling like i could've gone faster). That was back in March. I need to improve a little from that level and then have the perfect day in Amsterdam.

I am now based in Europe so easier to train in the summer here.

However i do relatively low mileage. I average between 60-70. My peak will never pass 75-80. Thats the best I can do working like 50h / week and traveling a lot. I am forced to do some weeks at 45s-50s as well.

Sometimes i doubt myself when i see some people claiming that in order to run sub2h30 one needs to average 90-100 mpw or at least have done that for a certain period in the past, something i have never done. My 2h31 Marathon was done averaging 60-65 miles over 15 weeks and am following that same assumption for now. I feel that doing more would not be optimal for my lifestyle, as i get pretty tired already with 70s weeks. I dont think i could do more.

good luck on your goals and on dealing with the heat.

thanks for sharing this. I have to say that i don't envision myself doing most of these workouts.

Yes the 2h long run is ok but no way on 7 x Mile finishing with a 4:57 and 4:49 off 90 sec.

Also the 5k progressive in 15:57 sounds brutal. 15:57 is frankly very close to what I could run on a race for 5k (maybe 15:45).

10 miles progressive in 55:18 I could see myself doing but I would be very tired in the end and it would be nearly race effort.

I might be wrong, but these workouts to me sound more like a 1h09 / 2h25-2h26 guy than a 1h11 / 2h29

My best half is 1::11:04 and my best marathon is 2:30:52 (Chicago 2015). I didn't focus on longer distance events until I was in my 40s, with my first marathon being at age 42.

For those who might be interested in seeing a training plan, a link to mine is attached.

A few notes about it:

The most obvious thing is that you will see that I extended my week to 9 days in the first phase and 8 days in the main phase. This was a concession to age and to training in the heat and humidity of the Florida summer. The end result is fewer workouts over the course of the cycle. That's okay for me for reasons mentioned below.

Also, my volume is a bit on the low side, and there is a fair amount of cross training on the calendar. That is a concession to the injury from March that limited my running. I just couldn't build up higher in the time I had. I am okay with that because I was in very good shape in March, so I really need enough work to recapture thatfitness more than too build from scratch. My first marathon I peaked at 75-80 miles, my second 90-100, my third 90. I'll be closer to 80-85 here.

The plan is a roadmap, and I'll take lots of detours along the way. For example, I traded my first vo2max session for a shorter and faster rep session. I missed a threshold session in the first phase. This weekend, I skipped the second set of mile repeats that were to be part of my long run because of the conditions. I ran a little less mileage early in the cycle than planned and am running a little higher mileage now. Mostly, it comes down to listening to my body and using the plan as a guide to get where I want to be, but not being a slave to the plan.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q8B64JFY27NJsZnM08z64PDqgUzHa6-hfl_u5E_nOo0

I'm shooting for 2:31-2:32 in Chicago then hopefully 2:27-2:28 in Dallas in December. I spent late Spring/early Summer in the weight room and relaxed the diet so I'm not in shape yet but I've got a good base going.

In TX so not quite as bad a Smoove but our dew point is around 72 most mornings. I've done a few long runs and medium-long tempos on the treadmill.

Week of 5/28: 79 miles

16x300m in ~53 seconds, 2 minute cycles

17 Long

Week of 6/4: 80 miles

20x300 ~53-54, 1 min rest

17:14 evening 5k, pretty hard effort

17 LR followed by 14 on Sunday

Week of 6/11: 100 miles

15 MLR on treadmill; 2 miles under 6:00 but too tired for more

24 LR followed by 13 Sunday

Week of 6/18: 103 miles

4x2:30 hills @ ~5:10-5:15/mi, jog to start

4.75 mile tempo @ 5:49

21 LR

Week of 6/25: 81 miles (Vacation begin)

16x400 72-75 ~70s standing rest

16 MLR on treadmill; last 10 miles 6:00 avg

5x3 minutes ~5:10/mi, long walk recovery. 9am in Florida very hot.

Week of 7/3: 46 miles (Vacation end)

10K race 35:59

Week of 7/10: 110 miles

AM: 6x2:30 hills @ ~5:20/mi, jog back to start, PM: Mile @ 5:33, 8x200 @ 33

16 MLR on treadmill; couple of miles under 6:00 but nothing special

27.4 LR on treadmill very easy pace (long story)

Week of 7/17: 89 miles (Vacation 2 days)

16.2 MLR on treadmill; last 10 miles 5:57 avg

Half Marathon in New Braunfels TX ~5:54 pace - 1:16 but slightly short course. Solo effort

This week I hope to start getting back into faster workouts. General plan is A/B week split going forward:

A Week:

~3-4 minute intervals

16 MLR working towards 10 @ MP

~24 easy

B Week:

~1-2 minute intervals

4-5 mile tempo

20 hard, maybe mixing in tempo/MP segments ala Daniels.

Andy, are you in the ADP corral in Chicago? If so, I am hoping you change your mind and take a shot at sub 2:30 if the weather looks good. We can recreate the Houston half marathon experience, but hopefully with me holding on to you a little better at the end.

I'm in the ADP corral, yeah. If my workouts look good in September I might be willing to go for it, but my biggest concern is making sure I can get back to training quickly after the race. Having the company would be nice!

Jealous of those ADP spots. I'll have enough company for the 2:32ish range from the A Corral, correct?

teepee wrote:

Jealous of those ADP spots. I'll have enough company for the 2:32ish range from the A Corral, correct?

Following this thread because it's something to strive for. I'll be shooting for 2:36-38 out of A. I ran five years ago in one of my earlier marathons, shooting for sub-2:50. I ran 2:47, had plenty of people to run with, and was lined up pretty close to the elites. I remember being able to do a warmup in the A corral itself and having plenty of space. I hope that's still the case!

Definitely. Being in the ADP corral is nice in a lot of ways (different security line, a tent with water and some food, designated warm up area and port-a-potties), but once we the ADP folks are brought up to the start they merge together with everyone else behind the pros and there is no meaningful distinction between the ADP corral and the first corral behind it.

I agree with you. The training he listed is way beyond what I was doing before I ran my 1:10, which was my best mark at any distance at the time (I had only been running HM's and it was a big PR). But I know I race much faster than I train, so you need to be honest with yourself. If I posted my training leading up to my 1:10 and asked LRC if I can run 1:10, people would say it's a troll thread and not a single person would advise me to start at 1:10 pace. I think if you feel like you have a good idea of what you need to do in training to run your goal race times, you should stick to that. But don't pace like an idiot on race day because you're too optimistic. Anyway I'm not a marathoner so I'll butt out. Good luck!

does CIM count as a fall marathon?

anyway, I'm actually the guy that started the Boston sub-2:30 thread this year. didn't work out for many reasons, the weather only being a part of it all.

Unfortunately, a few days after Boston I began to experience IT band issues in my left knee, so I've basically been out since then. I've been able to cycle as much as I like with no pain.

I've been able to run some since May but haven't exactly been training. In the last few weeks I've been able to run every other day, about 5-8 miles each time. I've been doing some quality during every run, so either just some strides or a tempo, or intervals, or whatever. Just anything really. I've also done many ~30min aqua jogging sessions in the last month or two and will continue doing that about twice a week until summer is over. If you count my 30min aqua jogs as about a 2-3 mile run, then my mileage has been: 26, 21, 24, 28, 27, 32. just this weekend I actually did a race as part of a triathlon. Ran 5.6 miles at 5:40ish pace, in about 70+ degree weather with a slight headwind. I was actually pleased with that although it was close to all-out.

on the bike I've averaged 104 mpw in the last 12 weeks, with most of that being in May and June. For May and June I was riding most days but only 20-25 miles usually, and sometimes with interval training thrown in. In the last few weeks I've only done about 3 rides per week but they're all longer on average. Rode 71 miles around Lake Tahoe last weekend which is the longest ride I've ever done. I could go whip out a century if I wanted to but I don't want to get carried away...I seem to be getting decent on the bike, and am considering finding a duathlon to race as I don't really want to have to add swimming.

As for training, I'm hoping to finally run over 30 miles this week. Got 7 miles in yesterday and hope to run 3 more times plus one or two aqua jogging sessions. tomorrow I have intervals or hills reps planned. thinking maybe something fast like 200s or hill sprints

plan is still to try for 2:29 at CIM but it depends how long recovery takes for ITBS. not gonna have a big running base going into the start of the marathon cycle but maybe the cycling will be good enough

nice to see so many cool posts and people gearing up for the sub2h30.

Smoove, thanks for sharing your training plan. Good insights from there. Later i'll put my schedule here as well.

reed, sorry to hear and hope you get better soon.

amsterdam marathon is quite nice and actually if you have run under 2h30 you don't pay the registration fee - nice incentive. I haven't however so will not be in the sub-elite corral.

this means i will need to run a very fast first mile to catch up with Bekele

good session yesterday,

running a solid ~ 8000m as following.

10:09 for 3000m (4 min jog)

6:39 for 2000m (3 min jog)

3:14 for 1000m (2 min rest)

2:32 for 800m (1:30 rest)

1:50 for 600m (1.15 rest)

1:07 for 400m (1 min rest)

29.1 for 200m

3rd week in a row of good training, will run very easy today and tomorrow and do a long tempo effort on Saturday, finishing another ~ 65-70 miles

Sunday will be rest as I will have a long flight and next week will be much easier so my body can absorb all the good training from last three weeks