You can hate on El Guerrouj all you want, but not for being a cheat.

rojo wrote:

Say what you want. I once was talking to a top 1500 runner and he said he thought El G was dirty. I asked him how confident they were that El G was dirty. They said, "110%."

Rojo, did this person run at the 1996 Olympics?

rekrunner wrote:

Do you often pretend that you can speak for others? You are really very bad at it.

More significant than what I allegedly think, 43% of letsrunner's believed his world record performance was clean.

Not everyone falls victim to Moroccan stereotypes.

Coevett wrote:

Rekrunner and ex-letsrunner both think El G was squeaky clean.

Funny Rekrunner, considering only something like 18% thought Kiprop was dirty, 12% for Keitany, 47% for Agerewa, 77.9% Shelley Ann-Fraser Price. Remember idiots also vote in elections.

To all of you who suspect most or all of the top 25 to be dirty ... where do you draw the line? Who are the top clean 1500m runners of all time?

No one who has debates like this on this site has ever been able to come up with names, numbers, times, etc. that belong in the clean category.

MichXCMan wrote:

To all of you who suspect most or all of the top 25 to be dirty ... where do you draw the line? Who are the top clean 1500m runners of all time?

No one who has debates like this on this site has ever been able to come up with names, numbers, times, etc. that belong in the clean category.

The last clean record holder at 1500m was probably Herb Elliott. Since than they all probably doped one way or another. Remember blood transfusions weren't banned until the mid 80s and a decent EPO test wasn't developed until the mid 2000s. And, steroids and stimulates have been used athletes since the 1930s.

Just my 0.02

I was tempted to come on here and mock the OP, but reading his post elicits only genuine pity and anger from this fan. He really believes El was clean, and that's just sad. Maybe El G will never be exposed at this point. But those who have been exposed, crushing young fans' perceptions as they are, do unquantifiable damage.

I understand how people can throw around the racist accusations, and that's also a shame. Willis is clean. El G was not. Neither was Kenny B. Sound racist! But man it's just true. There are white cheaters too, but they don't seem to perform as well generally as the Africans, maybe because the latter are generally superior. It all contributes to the mess.

Subway Surfers wrote:

47% for Agerewa

Who?

Sand Dunes wrote:

MichXCMan wrote:

To all of you who suspect most or all of the top 25 to be dirty ... where do you draw the line? Who are the top clean 1500m runners of all time?

No one who has debates like this on this site has ever been able to come up with names, numbers, times, etc. that belong in the clean category.

The last clean record holder at 1500m was probably Herb Elliott. Since than they all probably doped one way or another. Remember blood transfusions weren't banned until the mid 80s and a decent EPO test wasn't developed until the mid 2000s. And, steroids and stimulates have been used athletes since the 1930s.

Just my 0.02

So, we go with Elliott's time as the fastest clean times humanly possible? (3:35/3:54). ? It would be interesting to get to the bottom of this but so many people have emotional ties to their favorites that if you set line of scrimmage of the cleanest time possible, people get all pissed off if their idols are on the wrong side of the line.

I don't have a dog in this fight like some people who idolize & worship likes of El G or Coe or Willis and so on. In fact, I could less who's doped or not but it would interesting to get a 1500/mile time that is scientifically the maximum achievable without any pharmaceutical assistance.

I do think a 3:30 or so is possible. Imagjne a clean El G or Kiprop for example.

But, such a talent wouldn't resist the temptation to become a world beater, and thus rich and famous. See eg El G and Kiprop.

As long as you keep the hematocrit at 40 or less, we have a chance of fairness. Higher than 40 is not possible for humans without drugs.

qw4tf wrote:

As long as you keep the hematocrit at 40 or less, we have a chance of fairness. Higher than 40 is not possible for humans without drugs.

It's statements like these that make me realise what a collective bunch of buffoons this message board really is.

Haematologist wrote:

qw4tf wrote:

As long as you keep the hematocrit at 40 or less, we have a chance of fairness. Higher than 40 is not possible for humans without drugs.

It's statements like these that make me realise what a collective bunch of buffoons this message board really is.

You and all the other doping deniers hate us cause we be telling the truth.

That s strange. I had a good 1500m friend who train with ElG.

He told me he was clean.

I don't believe it, but still.

As to his retiring...when you have achieved everything and that it means training hard every day...and has meant training hard for so many years...

Maybe you don't know this feeling of relief that makes you let go.

It s done, man, it s done.

WTF, rojo? Seriously, I thought it was some two-bit troll until I saw your headline.

That statement has zero evidentiary value. You could have just asked yourself, a former top distance runner, about your own speculative opinion, and the answer would have equal value.

sconehead wrote:

rojo wrote:

Say what you want. I once was talking to a top 1500 runner and he said he thought El G was dirty. I asked him how confident they were that El G was dirty. They said, "110%."

WTF, rojo? Seriously, I thought it was some two-bit troll until I saw your headline.

That statement has zero evidentiary value. You could have just asked yourself, a former top distance runner, about your own speculative opinion, and the answer would have equal value.

Ran a 3:26 1500m during the EPO era, do I need to say anything else?

casual obsever wrote:

I do think a 3:30 or so is possible. Imagjne a clean El G or Kiprop for example.

But, such a talent wouldn't resist the temptation to become a world beater, and thus rich and famous. See eg El G and Kiprop.

So, sub-3:30 would probably need pharmaceutical assistance of some sort? If that's the case then people who have idols & heros that run sub-3:30 will just get all pissed off.

There must a scientifically proven limit of human physiology in running the 1500/mile (without any pharmaceutical aid). Once that limit is established then everything achieved beyond that would have had to been pharmaceutically aided...period.

We know the 1500 WR is 3:26 flat and it's been that way for 20 yrs. Is this the limits of human physiology for this distance without pharmaceutical aid? IOW, is this the fastest a human can run this distance clean...ever? Conversely, if this time is unachievable without some level of pharmaceutical assistance, then what time below this would the fastest without pharma aid?

Lets push the emotions out of the way and discuss this scientifically.

There are a number of non-Africans on there (e.g. Cacho), and even guys with North African roots like Baala are basically white (if you saw him walking down the street you'd think he's a normal white guy not an "African"):

And yet 20 years later only two Moroccan 10000m specialists can break 29 minutes, and one other 30 minutes :

AKMarmoset wrote:

I understand how people can throw around the racist accusations, and that's also a shame. Willis is clean. El G was not. Neither was Kenny B. Sound racist! But man it's just true. There are white cheaters too, but they don't seem to perform as well generally as the Africans, maybe because the latter are generally superior. It all contributes to the mess.

But then we have white runners like Seb Coe, Paula Radcliffe, and now Jakob, all three running times (or looking certain to in Jakob's case) that would be outliers even for Africans.

Now you can say, as most of the doping apologists here do, that all three are/were doped to the gills like Africans. But what would that would prove? Surely it would indicate that when white runners dope to the max, they can run even faster than juiced up Africans.

Or else Coe, Radcliffe, and Jakob are clean (which I believe 100% in the case of Coe and Jakob not so sure about Paula), which proves that Africans certainly aren't 'naturally superior', especially if they are competing against Africans who are often or mostly doped up.

Also, I don't even see here the Kenyan apologists claiming that Moroccans have any innate physiological advantage over Europeans. Genetically, they're almost identical to European Med groups, and if you analyzed the DNA of El G and the Ingebrigstens, they'd probably be closer in terms of genetic ancestry to each other than El G would be to Rudisha and Lagat.

Does seem a co-incidence that the top 25 1500 times are from two ethnic groups completely unrelated to each other, and only sharing in common (apart from setting the fastest times) having the most doping busts, despite the worst anti-doping procedures.

Nips and tatties wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

47% for Agerewa

Who?

I'm gonna deflect blame to Android for that one.