Road Racing and Training Thread, Week Ending 7/15/18

I'll try to get some comments up tonight. In the meantime, here's my week.

M - 10 miles with 6x 200 on/off. Averaged 6:30 overall and the 200's were 31.4, 32.5, 31.3, 30.3, 30.2, 29.2.

T - 4 miles wu/cd, 8 miles of 4,3,2,1 on, 1 off fartlek. Averaged 5:35 so it wasn't fast.

W - Off day, body needed it.

T - 10 miles, 6:18 avg.

F - 8 miles, 6:20 avg. Strides afterwards.

S - 4 wu/cd, 3x(3x300)

Set 1: 46.44, 44.06, 43.28 (90 seconds rest)

*3 minutes*

Set 2: 43.17, 42.94, 43.11 (2 minutes rest)

* 5 minutes*

Set 3: 42.24, 42.27, 40.61 (3 minutes rest)

S - 16 miles, 6:25 avg. Kept it relaxed coming off a short but fairly intense workout.

Total: 62

Overall a decent week. A little low on volume but that will happen with a day off.

How to come up with a training plan has been mentioned before on the thread. I'm outlining my training for this fall and thought I'd share the process.

My steps are

1. Look up all the races I could do and what races I want to target

2. Chunk off a general, pre-competition and competition period

3. Write in when to stop and start focusing on different kinds of workouts

4. Put down dates for workouts trying to do a workout type about every 2 weeks

5. Write in maintenance work

6. Come up with some rough progressions for the different workout types

Here are a list of all the races I might do this fall. The two I want to do the best at are an XC 5k in early November and then a Thanksgiving 5k. This gives me an 18 week season so I am doing 10 weeks general, 4 weeks pre-competition and then 4 weeks competition.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eXEjD86KPD5Ms0s-ydv0mxdUSkWIePh2iCaj8cpur5Y/edit?usp=sharing

Jewbacca et al. - The most common advice I see for basic mileage equates to roughly the 80-90% of marathon pace range, with recovery days slower than that. (And of course adjustment for weather, terrain, etc.) Perhaps there's some squishiness in terminology between recovery, easy, and moderate.

I think the motivation is that you're not getting much aerobic stimulus at the slow paces. For me (6:00ish M pace?), I feel like I'm getting a light aerobic workout if I'm hitting 7:00 pace, but not so much at 7:30 pace. I definitely think there's a lot of benefit in slower running in terms of neuromuscular coordination. And of course sessions like a 2 mile race provide plenty of aerobic stimulus.

Anecdotally, I remember junior year in college when our coach realized the women's team was running the same pace as us men on the Tuesday/Thursday easy days. Both the men and the women had a pretty good year.

And since it's 90+72, and will be about that when I run home this afternoon, I don't foresee myself running faster than 7:30 pace today!

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RRR and R4F - Great cross training . Definitely not a bad thing to be on the bike in the summer. Broke a toe in July 2007 and had to bike for 6 weeks (about 18 miles each day as a commute), but was set up aerobically for the fall.

TDR - I missed what got you going on doubles, but that was quite a streak. Good to put it to rest.

Stone Cutter - Good, summer base week.

Allen - Bet you slept well Saturday night.

OR - Usual, solid seventies. The 5k is a pretty good race Saturday evening in Arlington. Tends to draw a solid field, and if I manage a long run on Wednesday, it might be fun.

RGMW - Don't worry about not recovering fast from the 400s. Heat can really drain you. I'm hoping for both of us the third Sunday in October is a nice, seasonable morning in Michigan.

Smoove - Even if you don't get in everything you want with the compressed schedule leading up to Chicago, it looks like you're in a pretty good spot right now coming off the injury. I'm planning on doing some loop long runs this summer just to have regular access to water (and I have a good spot to get in some hills with little traffic).

RunnerSam - A lot of variety in that week. Looks fun.

Gordon - The first mile or two of morning runs is always a crawl. Lower leg issues also are more of a problem and take a while to loosen up. Some of my longer runs have faster overall paces just because those first two miles get averaged over a longer span.

Pewow - I'd bet you could break 16 on the track this weekend.

HHH - That open track meet sounds like a dream.

Krishna - Sounds like a good plan to kick-start things with a 5k.

Still Improving - Just trying to do intervals during beach week takes a lot. I'm only able to log miles while traveling because I'm out there before I'm awake enough to decide not to do it. Intervals take some focus.

Jeff - I give you a lot of credit for some serious climbing in nasty humidity.

Jeremy - Those long tempos are some of my favorite sessions--once they're over. The very easy running seems necessary with all the quality.

Statfanatic - There's no filler in that week.

Allen1959 wrote:

Everyone is different, but I have always believed in s-l-o-w recovery runs.

I recall long ago hooking up with a racing rival for an easy recovery day run. He couldn't believe how slow I wanted to trudge along.

Years later, he credited me with "teaching" him to run slow. He said he improved tremendously after that, able to run workouts harder and actually recover from them.

He's in his mid-60s now, and still racing well.

Great share, Allen! I'll be keeping this in mind. Had a great workout this morning, and can absolutely attribute to the slowed down Saturday night pace and yesterday's off day.

stat - That is a strong summer week.

Sub 6:00 wrote:

Jewbacca et al. - The most common advice I see for basic mileage equates to roughly the 80-90% of marathon pace range, with recovery days slower than that. (And of course adjustment for weather, terrain, etc.) Perhaps there's some squishiness in terminology between recovery, easy, and moderate.

I don't think I could do that in this humidity. In drier air and throwing out the old-man-warmup-miles, I might be on the slower side of that zone. But with 75-80°F dew points day in and day out from June to September (or May-October if we repeat last year), every run is uncomfortable and it wears on me. Mentally and physically, it really wears on me.

Some days I make a point of not looking at the watch and just run a constant effort. Almost every time, my pace drops from 8:30 to 7:45, hovers around 7:30 awhile, then dips down to around 7:00 the final few miles. I average ~7:30 pace every time. Constant effort. I have to force the pace to do it differently. For now, the scheduled fast-easy efforts are the way I'm doing that.

When you run your sub-7 pace days, how would you describe the effort? It looks like you're doing that nearly every day. Do you feel accumulated fatigue, or does it come pretty naturally?

jewbacca - I hear you. Running in hot, humid summer conditions every day is mentally and physically draining. Sometimes I just want to come home. At other times of the year, that rarely happens. This morning’s run was particularly hot, and I was thinking about how cold it was along the same path in January...when, on a few runs, my freezing hands almost made me turn around and head for home. Hard to conceive of that right now.

Someone’s daily/default training pace, BY ITSELF, is not indicative of the kind of shape they may be in. It’s the overall stress that matters which can be accomplished through a steadier distribution of effort or a more polarized model of training.

too hot wrote:

Someone’s daily/default training pace, BY ITSELF, is not indicative of the kind of shape they may be in. It’s the overall stress that matters which can be accomplished through a steadier distribution of effort or a more polarized model of training.

Excellent points...no doubt, summer conditions will “mask” someone’s true fitness...but the pot of gold awaits in autumn.

An ordinary day--something like 8-10 miles at 6:50; in the summer typical weather is low 70s with dew point in the upper 60s--I wouldn't call it hard by any means, but it'll feel like I've done some work, and by the end I'm looking forward to standing in front of a fan and drinking ice water. I do get some fatigue and eventually need a recovery day, but feel okay logging those feels pretty natural if I'm not doing a lot of hard workouts.

Male, 15, 5' 7.5", 125 lbs

PRs: 5:02 (1600), 11:12 (3200)

Goal: Build mileage for upcoming cross country season

M: 5.00 mi progressive (8:16, 8:03, 7:45, 7:16, 6:20)

T: 5.12 mi easy (7:56, 8:02, 8:03, 7:57, 7:41, 7:24)

W: 0.5 mi warmup, 4x(200 easy, 200 medium, 200 hard (100 flat, 100 uphill) w/ 30s rest) Splits: (2:27, 2:24, 2:20, 2:13), 0.5 mi cooldown

T: 5.72 mi recovery (7:26, 7:44, 7:34, 7:49, 7:48, 8:27)

F: 6.18 mi easy (8:13, 8:23 8:02, 7:57, 8:33, 8:04, 8:20)

S: 4.37 mi easy (7:42, 8:01, 7:56, 7:59, 7:45)

Total: 27.9 miles

And I'm curious to see where my paces go if I manage to get into the 90s in a few weeks. :)

Well. I'm late here. Last week was my second break week and I did absolutely nothing besides studying, working on my thesis, did a cycling class and had a music festival on Thursday, Friday and Saturday (btw Pearl Jam are such an amazing band to watch live...)

I started today my new cycle for a Fall/Winter HM and 10k. Goals are around 1:30 in the HM and 39:00 in the 10k, so this following week will be SLOOOOOOW.

I will be a Coach Jeff v2 due to the fact that I bought a new GPS watch, a Garmin 735 with the Tri bundle (meaning that I have the swimming and multisport HR band). I will, besides the prescribed paces, put my HR and try to see the evolution in it throughout the entire cycle!

Nice week to everyone!

Sub 6:00: Thanks for getting it started. That's a strong week even with the adjustments.

RRR: Can you account for the way the piriformis reacts to the hill beatings? I mean, is it a mechanical thing, like the nerves get "rearranged?" Is it physiological? Any guess? What does Dr. say about your treatment method?

TDR: The fartleks sound fun...we did a similar thing in HS, rotating through each guy. When your surge was ready to go, you had to falsetto "ROXANNE..." and everyone else had to answer "you don't have to put on the red light!" a la The Police.

The Stone Cutter: Enjoy the pool time with the girls!

Allen: Was the Achilles day off a response to the VO2max workout?

OR: Another strong week in hot weather.

RunGuyMidwest: Maybe the fatigue is not to be unexpected, coming off base phase and into more serious workouts?

Smoove: Great to see a strong week without the need to mention injuries.

RunnerSam: Lots of quality! Your races next week are really on two opposite ends of the spectrum!

Runningforfun: Glad the foot is seeing some improvement.

Gordon: Looks like a good week. What's your plan for peak mileage?

pewow: Truly a great 6 months!

HHH: Experts say it takes about 2 weeks to acclimate to the heat. They don't say when it no longer sucks.

krishna: Glad to see you're feeling fine again! Would 16:30 be a new PB?

jewbacca: Helluva week. Good volume and a 1st place!

Still Improving: Enjoy the beach!

Jeremy: Another strong week. Why running the easy runs easier? A change in philosophy or just trying it out?

stat: Great intensity deserves a day off, for sure.

A thought on running "slow."

It's supposed to be gentler on the body, but it seems to beat the hell out of guys psychologically! If you don't believe that the pace you're running is helpful, it's gonna suck psychologically, whether you're running too fast or too slow. But if you want to reap the physical base building/recovery benefits, then maybe address the psychological side? I like the way Jeremy uses the word "regeneration" or the way other people use the term "recovery" pace. It turns a "slow" run into a "pace with a purpose." And the word "slow" isn't even exactly right to begin with. "Slower" is more accurate. It's simply one pace on the "rest -- -- -- -- workout" spectrum. Many runners take a rest day or two every week and have no problem conceiving of that rest day as contributing to an overall workout plan. Compared to a rest day, you're flying on that "slow" run, right?

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

Was the Achilles day off a response to the VO2max workout?

Yes.

Both achilles have been bothersome lately, especially after speedwork. They don't like the low-drop shoes anymore. My knees did not like the higher-drop shoes. But the knees are feeling better now, so I have brought my 8mm-drop Asics back into my rotation. That is helping the achilles. For my workouts and races, though, I am sticking with the 4- and 3mm-drop shoes.

Managed to cool it to an average of 7:11 on a 10 mile run from work. (Mile 2 was just under 7, going by Nats Park with the HR Derby festivities, but otherwise kept it between 7:05 and 7:15.) That’s not much of a slow-down, but it was hard to be disciplined the first few miles and not progress it down to 6:30. Going to do my best to take my easy runs slow (over 7:00) this week, with exceptions on Wednesday and Saturday. Curious how this will go, but can’t hurt my volume goals.

Psychologically, I do think it’s hard to run slow on ordinary days, for the same reason we tend to push it too far in general and get injured: it takes a lot of restraint, and most of us have something of a competitive streak, which can get us in trouble. I tend to think it makes more sense to keep a solid pace in the base phase, but there are many ways to do this.

M26, 6'1" 150. Just trying to get in shape in general, long term goal is probably Chicago Marathon 2019. In the meantime, probably various races 5k-half. 27:12 road 8k PB

Mon AM: 6 @7:45

PM: 4 @7:48

Tues AM: 8 @7:47

PM: 4 w/3x30s fast/1:30 jog

Weds AM: 8 @8:00

PM: 4 @8:06

Thurs AM: 6 @8:00

Thurs PM/Fri AM: in Raleigh for an Arcade Fire concert, should have gotten at least a token run in since I know there are plenty of places to run there, but *shrug*

Fri PM: 4 w/4x10s hill sprints

Sat AM: 8 @7:47

PM: 4@7:51

Sun AM: 8 @7:48

Total: 64 miles

Humidity sucks. I have faith the trudging along will pay off though, it definitely helped fuel my last big breakthrough. I should start doing a long run but I'm afraid of bonking in the heat.

Male, 37

6'2" 160

Well,

It's been awhile, but I thought I'd chime in since I've been lurking and racing.

Since I last posted:

steady 55-65 per week and 3 races (all road races)

3k: 8:55. Perfect conditions, well executed race

last week 7/8: 1 mile: 4:39 (even splits) This was after 2 weeks of traveling where I ate and drank my way across the US. I did run everyday thought

5k Saturday night (7/14): 15:58

This was my 13th time under 16 minutes in the last 6 years, and was the hardest.

I split Ks, going 309, 305, 312, 322, 307.

The race started at 730 and was 85, sunny, and humid. The race got lit up in the 2nd K, and really got to me in the 4th k. Most of the first 3k were in the shade, but the 4th was out in the open. I really was hurting, but when I saw 1250 at 4k, I thought, " don't be a wuss."

I think I'm finally now completely recovered from the race.

You are all inspiring, and it is fun to see all the different training methodologies.

Forgot to post yesterday. Whoops.

27, 162 lbs, slow

Tuesday: 6 miles at 10 minute pace on the treadmill

Wednesday: 8 miles at 9:23 minute pace. Ran this like a fartlek with 3 x 5 minutes at marathon pace and some shorter bursts. Did 8 x 15 second strides afterwards.

Thursday: 6 miles at 10:10 pace on the treadmill

Sunday: 10 miles at 9 average pace. Ran miles 1 - 3 at 10 minute pace, 4 - 5 at 8 minute pace (marathon pace), 6 - 7 at 10, 8 - 10 at 8.

Total: 30

Overall it was an ok week. I meant to hit 35, but was absolutely not feeling it on Saturday. So I took the day off. For the next two weeks, I'm running 35 miles off 6 days of running. Every run taking at least an hour is mentally draining. Probably wouldn't be so bad if I wasn't so damn slow.

But, eventually my easy pace will be faster. Eagerly awaiting the start of phase II. Just easy running is not my thing I've discovered