All over the place I have seen runners, particularly from the US, go out on these 6-8km (4-5 miles) "tempos" at ~15km - half marathon pace. I fail to understand why this is an efficient workout physiologically.
What are the purpose of these tempos? People say "its to filter lactate more effectively". The majority of lactate is filtered by the lactate shuttle (lactate from glycolysis in type IIb fibres ------> mitochondria in type 1 fibres where it is converted back to pyruvate and undergoes oxidative phosphorylation). Your body adapts to this by increasing the concentration of lactate dehydrogenase enzymes, lactate transporters on cell membranes, lactate transporters on the mitochondrial membrane etc blah blah. This in turn will allow you to run at a sustained faster pace for longer periods as you can filter more lactate.
Cool. Makes sense.
But aren't there better ways of getting these adaptions? Lets say a runner has a "threshold" is 3.30/km or ~5.39 per mile. You go do a 4 mile run at this pace. Workout complete. OR you could do 7 x mile on the track building up to paces FASTER than the tempo. For example, starting at 5.39/mile and working down to 5.20 with 1-1:30 rest or so. In this workout, you are getting much more mileage done, producing and filtering much more lactate, working at a more specific pace (if 10k or down runner) AND working at a higher cardiac output for a longer period (intervals are also the best way to increase left ventricular stroke volume and therefore increase VO2 max). It also isn't more tiring (from experience of myself and others).
Essentially all I am saying is threshold track workouts >>> tempos
Please enlighten me if you disagree, I actually want to hear other peoples opinions on my logic hence the post..
Your Tempos are bs
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Sure, Cruise Intervals as you have described are an effective way of training to raise your 'threshold'.
I still feel continuous 3-5 miles are needed as they can train you mentally. A 20 minute 'hardish' effort can help you to focus for longer races.. -
You are, in a way, describing some CV type workouts. I agree with you to a degree, but I believe that continuous tempos have their place.
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Many people I know do both tempos and mile repeats. I certainly do, and just about every program I've been a part of has done both. Both have their place.
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OR you could do 7 x mile on the track building up to paces FASTER than the tempo. For example, starting at 5.39/mile and working down to 5.20 with 1-1:30 rest or so. In this workout, you are getting much more mileage done, producing and filtering much more lactate, working at a more specific pace (if 10k or down runner) AND working at a higher cardiac output for a longer period (intervals are also the best way to increase left ventricular stroke volume and therefore increase VO2 max).
demonstrating, if you don't mind me saying so, a complete lack of understanding of what it is you are trying to achieve.
or, at least, none of that faster work with more mileage and filtering more lactate has anything to do with your original point about threshold training.
what you're doing here is exactly the same mistake folk make when they run their track repeats too fast. they think faster is somehow better, but they have no idea what "better" means and in running faster they lose sight of what they were trying to achieve.
every workout has a purpose. run the session so as to achieve that purpose.
lactate itself has nothing to do with the reason you run at the lactate threshold. think of it like this. you walk into a store and there's a sign that says everything with a red sticker is half price. so you wander round the store looking for things with red stickers on them. but the sticker is not the point. half price is the point. what you're doing is fixating on the sticker and forgetting the real purpose of going in the store was to buy some lightbulbs.
within the context of your post, lactate is just a marker for the threshold at which you start to metabolise anaerobically. you train at the lactate threshold to increase the pace at which you can run aerobically. it's not about shifting lactate from the muscles or filtering lactate from the blood, it's about aerobic metabolisation.
cheers. -
When so many of the fast runners doing "scientific" training at various paces were just on drugs, like Kiprop, I find it might be just as good to "just run" and do workouts 2-3 times a week.
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Cottonshirt wrote:
it's not about shifting lactate from the muscles or filtering lactate from the blood, it's about aerobic metabolisation.
This is the first time Cotten has actually said something correct. Wow! There is hope.
He's right. Tempo running isn't about clearing lactate. It's about increasing the pace at which lactate starts to accumulate. The lactate production is just an indicator of the cellular activity.
Jeers. -
I think Tempos should have limited space in anything below 10k as the people tend to do them too fast, too long and they end up overtaxing the system if done in the immediate run up to a race... I could see them as aerobic support to a 5k runner but not really more than that...
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KAV wrote:
I think Tempos should have limited space in anything below 10k as the people tend to do them too fast, too long and they end up overtaxing the system if done in the immediate run up to a race... I could see them as aerobic support to a 5k runner but not really more than that...
Actually, for guys who are more fast twitch oriented, tempos are a critical workout. I agree that they can tend to be done too fast, especially if you are doing cruise intervals. My experience both as an athlete and a coach is that your typical 800/1600 guy absolutely needs tempos to run a good 5k or higher. That was a huge missing piece for me in HS. I only ran 16:56 in HS for 5k. Never did a real tempo run, but did tons of 400 interval stuff and long runs and higher weekly mileage. I was also a 1:59/4:09 800/1500 guy at that point, so you can see there was a huge drop off in the 5k distance. A year and a half later I ran 15:30 basically training the same only adding longer tempo runs. Also ran a 4:02 that year, so you can see that the tempo dramatically helped my 5k racing ability. It probably also affected my 15, but I think the impact was greater on the longer race.
My theory is that endurance based runners with more slow twitch fibers have a naturally higher LT, i.e their LT pace is closer to their maxVO2 pace. Fast twitch guys are naturally able to run shorter distances faster than slow twitch guys, but they really need to move their LT pace up if they want to compete at the longer stuff. Fast twitchers can run hard fro 5-7 minutes, but then saturation happens and really slows them down. Personally I was good through 3k (9 min ish) as I could hold on while saturated for the last few minutes. A 15 minute race was too much for me to push through. -
weeewooo wrote:
Essentially all I am saying is threshold track workouts >>> tempos
Do you know the difference between Aeorobic Threshold and Lactate Threshold?
There's no 'one size fits all' or superior training method, some people thrive without intervals at all:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=309865 -
I've read that when it comes to tempos and long runs, there are two types of runners. 800/1500 runners benefit more from longer continuous tempos while 400/800 runners benefit from less mileage and faster shorter tempos. I am the latter.
I did Nick Willis' Miler Boot Camp last summer. Yes, THAT Nick Willis. We did tempos (usually 2x10min) to build up to our mile time trial. (Of course, there was other stuff, too.) Almost everyone improved their mile times... except me. Almost everyone was a distance runner dropping down to the mile while I was a 400m runner moving up.
I corresponded with Nick and he suggested I switch to shorter, faster tempo runs. The new workout was 2 sets of 6x400m (30-second recovery between reps. 4-5 minutes between sets.) After six weeks, I ran a mile AG PR.
My point? There is a place for both types of workouts. Which one you choose depends on the athlete and the event. -
KAV wrote:
I think Tempos should have limited space in anything below 10k as the people tend to do them too fast, too long and they end up overtaxing the system if done in the immediate run up to a race... I could see them as aerobic support to a 5k runner but not really more than that...
We inevitably make training harder than it needs to be because we are human. Train at race pace. Train a little faster than race pace. Train a little slower than race pace. Train easy. Run extended runs at these pace. Run intervals at these paces to accumulate for volume of work than could be done during an extended run.
Alan -
fisky wrote:
I've read that when it comes to tempos and long runs, there are two types of runners. 800/1500 runners benefit more from longer continuous tempos while 400/800 runners benefit from less mileage and faster shorter tempos. I am the latter.
From a coaching perspective I think the shorter cruise type intervals are usually for guys who struggle with the mental aspect of longer tempo runs. I have trained faster 800 guys (1:51 was the fasted HS kid) and we really worked on using cruise intervals to build up to longer tempo runs. This same kid ran 15:50 5k (cc) as well, so the longer tempo runs really benefited him. -
The continuous runs train your mentalitity. Broken tempos are for the weak or as a last resort on 100 degree days or on days with zero company and its the only way you'll get the effort in.
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I always thought that, during threshold/tempo workouts, we avoid going faster than needed because it produces less lactate and places less stress on the anaerobic system.
The more lactate produced, the more the pH of the blood is lowered. When the blood’s pH is lowered, this makes it much harder to recover and increases the risk of overtraining.
I read this in Running with Lydiard. -
It’s a great point and one that fellrnr makes on his site. No science to back up tempo efforts, with the only justification being they are ‘mentally tough’ and that helps prep for a race...
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I don't have the science to back this up but my personal experience has been that IF threshold tempos are not done too fast that I improve a lot more than with cruise intervals. However most people over estimate their threshold and run the workouts too fast and get very little out of them. If you think your threshold is 3:30 per K I would say be safe and run 3:35 per K. The workout will feel easier but you will see much greater improvements.
However I have seen the greatest gains from doing either alternations where I alternate paces from about 10 seconds per K faster than threshold and recover with paces about 10 seconds slower than threshold or from running slower than threshold, say marathon pace give or take and then finishing with runs at or just a bit quicker than threshold. Again using the 3:30 per K example doing a 10k tempo with the first 7k at 3:40 to 3:45 and then finishing with the last 3k at 3:30 to 3:25.
Again exactly why the gains have been more with that I'm not clear on but the difference has been very noticeable. -
weeewooo wrote:
Essentially all I am saying is threshold track workouts >>> tempos
Tempos are usually done in addition to threshold workouts, not in place of them. A typical week for my team would be a tempo on Monday, threshold repeats on Tuesday, and then shorter and faster repeats on Thursday or Friday (either "I" or "R" pace). The tempo affords the opportunity for a moderate effort that has aerobic training benefit, but doesn't leave us to worn out for the other workouts of the week. -
Temp o runs and borderline time trial runs are great for sustained effort practice. Many people who do repeats have a terrible time putting it all together in a race. Their body just adapts to multiple short efforts and seizes up when asked to sustain the effort.
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larger context wrote:
weeewooo wrote:
Essentially all I am saying is threshold track workouts >>> tempos
Tempos are usually done in addition to threshold workouts, not in place of them. A typical week for my team would be a tempo on Monday, threshold repeats on Tuesday, and then shorter and faster repeats on Thursday or Friday (either "I" or "R" pace). The tempo affords the opportunity for a moderate effort that has aerobic training benefit, but doesn't leave us to worn out for the other workouts of the week.
There is definitely a terminology problem here. I am a Daniels guy and he uses tempo and not threshold to describe running at the pace where lactate begins to rise in your blood. I think of threshold runs as the same pace. I you are using a different pace for tempo and threshold, that's fine, but most Daniels people only use the term tempo and only do one per week, maybe two, but not back to back days.
E pace
MP pace
T pace
I pace
R pace
That'a how Daniels structures things. There is no different threshold pace that you describe.
