INTERESTING Observations of Japanese training in China

Were those runners you were running with womens?

its pretty obvious.

So the summary for top Japanese females is:

6400 feet - 150 to 180 miles a week mostly at 9 min. miles.

speedwork - 1 and 2ks at 4:30 to 5 min. mile pace.

Is this correct?

Tons of miles - even laughably slow ones - REALLY DO help your running. Many would-be runners in the U.S.A. dearly want to believe there are "courses for horses". Meanwhile, the Japanese marathoners follow ONE course: 250K+ weeks including super-slow "time on their feet" easy runs, very focused hard days, and sessions like 30K progression runs. And ... surprise! ... they have plenty more horses than we do.

I checked a really deep world list a couple of years ago and saw that Japan had about NINETY (!) men under 29:00 for 10,000m. What the devil is up with the U.S. to not be able to match that? Now, this year IS one of our best ever at the 10. We've got 6 guys under 28:00 and 33 under 29:00, so we're doing much better than we were several years ago. But COME ON, Eileen! Our depth is still pitiful compared to the Japanese, and it's because most of us are still HAMMERING ourselves to the ground with intense anaerobic interval "training" in HS and college as opposed to patiently developing aerobic capacity by running more and more miles at relaxed to medium speeds.

"But wait a minute, Kell-Dog, ..." I hear somebody say, "... these Japanese marathoners WERE hammering on their 2,000m repeats." True, but they're now training for races that are less than 2 months away, so this is a good time to push the pace envelope. Plus, what we the readers of this message board DON'T see is the training which LED UP to this current training. There was undoubtedly mega-amounts of that super-slow shuffling which has been just as important as the more directed efforts in the making of these elite marathoners. This is reminiscent of Frank Shorter's training, in which there was TONS of mileage with EXTREMELY slow easy days.

Can't do 150 miles per week and keep it at your "normal" 6:40 pace? Then go 8:00 pace on days when you need to. Or why not 9:00 pace, at least at the beginning of a run? Think it won't do you any good? Think again. Some of the best runners in the world start at a WALKING pace and barely get any faster during many of their recovery runs. Yes, you need some scheduled faster running, and you can occasionally run hard spontaneously, but you MUST recover from that fast running and this recovery running often needs to be pretty durn SLOW if you're running very high mileage.

I've seen a Kenyan do a warmdown at 10 to 12 min. mile
pace after a race, but if some world class runners are
training at 10 min. pace I guess you have to believe it.

As long as this doesn't morph into Gallowalking 12 minute
miles.

So a mailman/mailwoman living in Boulder/Denver gets up at
4am, and runs an easy 10 to 15 miles, then rapidly walks
another 10 to 15 miles on their route is building a huge
aerobic base which could be converted into fast times if
they have talent and transition training.

JK,
How would you defend your argument of "running" a majority of one's mileage slowly, against the success of Paula Radcliff and Khalid Khannouchi, both of whom do solid volume, but at paces that could never be considered slow? Paula has been running over 120 mpw, which she runs at paces between 5:30 - 6:30 m/m. And KK, who runs less than Paula (approx. 100-120), absolutely hammers his distance runs, at times dropping to 10K pace.

I thought one's volume should be done at a fairly steady pace--not to over tax the body, but far from a shuffle.

I look forward to hearing your response.

Thanks,

Adam

Yes, they were in fact women I was training with....some of the best IN THE WORLD. I was much honored to be on the track with them, pacing them through their 2000s.

Yesterday, I decided to try a bit of the program. Right now I am up in Dali (by myself) at 6500 feet. Yesterday I did two runs, 22km in the morning about 9am and then 23km about 5pm. Pissing down rain the whole way, roads were like a continuous steeplechase waterjump....but I loved it! I think that actually I hit it too fast yesterday, going about 4;00 per km.

Today I am resting in the morning (very un-Japanese like) and then going about 38km tonight, again about 4;00 per km, but I want to throw in a few fast kms about 3;20 pace.

I want to go about 280km this week, to see what it feels like. Monday night I am going up to Zhondian for 5 days at 10,000 feet. I know that I will have to slow down up there...also I want to check the place out for feasibility of training.

To answer the question of the previous poster, YES, the Japanese program seems to be lots of miles about 7-9 minutes pace and intervals at 2;55 to 3;10 per km. I am sure that they do tempo runs about 3;10 to 3;30 per km as well.

JasonInTheWildsOfCHINA

I dont know what Khannouchi and Radcliffe are doing, and frankly, I really dont care.

Every runner out there needs to experiment wildly with his/her training and find out what works best for his/her event and body.

No, Reiko Tosa was not Gallowalking in the sense of taking walking breaks during her run. The intervals were obviously done BALLS TO THE WALLS. The warmup began with walking and the cooldown ended with walking.

It is well known that Morceli often took recovery runs at 10 minutes per mile.

Last week, I saw Yoko Shibui do 10x200 in 6;30 average on a muddy dirt track in marathon race shoes, with 90 seconds rest. But yes, the majority of her runs appear to be REALLY REALLY slow.

JK, thanks for your added validation and insight.

jason

I've only been to 155 miles at 2200-2400 feet, but I was
always conscious of losing speed at slower than 7 minute
miles. Good luck, and thanks for sharing your experiment of
one in totally foreign terrain.

Will you be satisfied with 170 miles, or will you see
what's over the next mountain range?

Six under 28 and 33 under 29. But none that JK coaches. "Nough said!

So what. N.A. should be able to produce that without any
intricate coaching/training system.

Jason, you have tremendous genetics. How old are you? Awesome insight, trails and tales, miles and trials. Keep us posted. JK, if I wouldn't have run out of money, would you have had me run 150m weeks, sort've like the Japanese? Press On, Jason.

The Japanese have many great marathoners and half-marathoners and a fair amount of 10,000 meter runners.

Question: However, where are their great 5,000 meter runners? Where are their great 1500 meter runners? Compared to their long distance success, there is a complete dearth of good performances in the middle distances.

Part of the answer: Comparing the 5,000 meters to the marathon is comparing apples to oranges. Mega-mileage at very slow paces does not make great 5,000 meter runners let alone great middle distance runners. Yes, huge amounts of LSD will get you to a certain point. . . and for a certain percentage of the population it is the only way they will get there--even in the 5k. However, look at the best middle distance runners in the world. Most of them are running moderately high mileage at a fairly brisk pace.

I don't argue with the Japanese approach for the longer distances--its a proven system. By the same logic its proven it doesn't work for the middle distances.

If your going to be one of the top milers in the world you've got to be able to run a great 5,000m AND 800m. Look a Krummenacker. He dropped his volume and has worked on developing his basic athleticism and boom, he drops his 1500m to 3:31. Would he want to train that way for a marathon? No. A big No. For all events 800m and up you've got to have some kind of a base and you've got work quite a bit on aerobic capacity. The rest should be highly even specific.

Jason, great info on the Japanese system. Keep it up. If I was training for a marathon I might run 150 mpw. I'm training for the 800m and over the summer have diligently built up my base more then ever before. Nonetheless for the middle distances, mileage is like vitamins--just because some is good doesn't mean more is better.

From post #1 we have: "Yes, they were in fact women I was training with....some of the best IN THE WORLD. I was much honored to be on the track with them, pacing them through their 2000s."

From Post #2 we have: "I dont know what Khannouchi and Radcliffe are doing, and frankly, I really dont care."

"Every runner out there needs to experiment wildly with his/her training and find out what works best for his/her event and body."

So, ignoring and not caring what others, who ALSO happen to be some of the best IN THE WORLD, do in training while falling over himself to prop the training of the group he jerks off to nightly is a FINE example of how we all should consider an array of types of training and sources for ideas of what to try. Apparently the chief idea Jason is trying to get across is to try anything, so long as it is something from Asia that he told us to try. Gee thanks, basket-case.

Does anyone else get the sense that someone with such a GIGANTIC AND BLINDING BIAS might, oh I don't know, embellish what he reports to a large degree? Jason's "reports" should not be given any more weight than the estimations and exclamations issued forth by any other home-team broadcasters. There is probably SOME truth in there, but typically it is burried under a HUGE mound of hyperbole and exaggeration.

One more thing:

"It is well known that Morceli often took recovery runs at 10 minutes per mile."

If it's really THAT well-known, why not share with us the rest of Morceli's training, since to almost all of us it is a complete mystery? What kind of mileage, in-season and out? Staple workouts with both times and recovery intervals? I don't know what anyone else things, but I would MUCH rather see a detailed and factual account of Morceli's training than that of some Japanese marathon factory clone.

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?? wrote:

Six under 28 and 33 under 29. But none that JK coaches. "Nough said!

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Common guys...Do not extend the one team training in one season to the whole Japanese training.And of course middle distance runners don't do such training.It's another problem.

They Japanese system is not set up for fast 1500 and 5000 running. 10km and up is the Japanese focus, AS IS MINE.

Paula is an awesome athlete, dont get me wrong. I really admire her toughness. NO COMMENT about Khalid Khannouchi.

Today I am still in Dali. I did my long run, but it was not 38km....it was 43km, at the Zen-like pace of 4;15/km. A couple of big Jam-smothered crepes, rice, a bit of beer and a croissant has put me back together in 4 hours flat.

GRod, thanks for the compliments. I get my strength from my MOM. She is one tough customer. She would've been the 1960's version of Joan Benoit had their been women's marathon and women's track in High School and College in Nevada back then. My Dad gave me my minimal amount of raw speed and my craziness.

I am 33 years old, going on 18. I had no race from 1991 to 1998 and I think I am reaping the benefits of that now. Next race is a half in Sapporo on 6th of October, followed by a 10km in Bangkok on 27Oct., followed by the Seoul Marathon on 3November....followed by a much needed REST.

First of all to JK and Wejo: Note that simply BECAUSE JK is a great coach, he will most certainly ctach heat from jerks who suck at running.

This is the human condition.

Second, anyone would have to be DEAF, DUMB, and BLIND in the figurative sense (and many who post here are) to negate the remarkable and prolific knowledge of the sport that JK has demonstrated time and again. He has literally posted a freakin BOOK's worth of training materil on these biards, and I DARE someone to say they have not learned something helpful from him.

Finally for that idiot who spoke of the 28-29 10k guys. In case you were ASLEEP Wejo has run 28:10.

However, the measure of a coach is NOT how FAST their runners race, but HOW MUCH THEY IMPROVE!!!

Look at WEjo: Improvement every year under JK, chopping the 10k from 30-- to 28:10. Rojo goes from a 7 year running hiatus to a 2:23.

That is some damn good coaching.