Sub 14:50 5k shape indicators?

jamin wrote:

None of the workouts you posted indicate that you can run 3 consecutive 4:46 miles.

This. I was in better shape as freshman in college running faster tempos and faster mile reps and I could run mbe 15:20's.

I peaked at 80 mpw, and the tempo volume seemed appropriate. I worked it up from 4 x mile in January to 6 x mile in March with a few 4 mile continuous efforts mixed in, and that 6400/3200 session came in mid-May 3-4 weeks before my goal race.

4800m of mile pace work is a lot, and had I seen it on the schedule in January I might have been scared. Thing is, the sets of 200s are not very taxing. So in reality you get 4 x 200 that sort of acts as a warmup for the heavy lifting, then some hard 800s and 400s, then the last set of 200s feels like cake. And you can push the pace to touch on top-end speed if needed. The 800s are really tough, but I started to see big breakthroughs in fitness when we added them in. The key is taking the full 4:20-4:30 rests per Daniels.

The mile pace workouts progressed gradually. A few snapshots from my log:

Jan/Feb:

8-10 x 300m hill sprints

Late-Feb:

4 x 200m; 6 x 400m; 4 x 200m (66-67s on the 400s)

Mid-March:

4 x 200m; 1 x 800m; 4 x 400m; 4 x 200m (2:13/65-66s)

Early-April (had a major breakthrough in this one)

2 x 200m; 2 x 800m; 4 x 400m; 2 x 200m (2:09/2:08/63-64s)

And then the big one I listed from early-May. I cracked 15:00 for the first time about 2 weeks after the April workout. I really regret not running faster than 14:50. But in my goal race I was alone from laps 3-10. The pack was running 69s and I let go hoping I could hit 71s and reel in other guys as they dropped. But the other guys didn't drop until late in the race.... I still play that one over in my head wondering what would have happened if I'd just hung on.

I guess I'll chip in here to provide another perspective. This is the last 8 weeks of my 5th year fall season in college (fall of 2014). I didn't have cross country eligibility, but I still raced most of the season unattached and finished my season with a 1600m time trial and then a 5000m time trial. I ran 14:53 in the 5k, but I was paced through 1k and then led the rest of the way, so I'm pretty confident that I was capable of barely under 14:50 that day in the right race. I'll just go through the weeks with weekly mileage, any workouts, and long runs. This will be a lot to look at, but I wanted to go back and look at that training anyways, so hopefully this helps somebody in some way. For what it's worth, I've also got very little speed (58 400m best)

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Week 1 - 101 miles

8 x 1 mile (grass and hilly) with 2:00 jog rest, 5:26 average

2 x (4:00 on, 3:00 on, 2:00 on), 1 x (3:00 on, 2:00 on) with 2:00 jogging between each (5:46 overall average, grass and hilly)

18 mile long run in 2:00:00 (last 3 miles at 6:00)

Week 2 - 90 miles

7 x 1200m (grass) with 3:30 rest and 400m jog, 3:44 average

12 x 600m (track) with 2:30 rest and 200m jog, 1:47 average, last rep 1:39

2 x 4k on Roy Griak cross country course (hilly) with 5:00 rest, 5:27 average

13 mile long run, 6:55 average

Week 3 - 82 miles in 6 days

6 x 5:00 on (Starts at 3:00 rest and decreases 0:30 each set to 1:00 rest), average 6:00 overall (grass and hilly)

Long hill workout (6600m of uphill), reps between 300m-800m, anywhere from 5:00-5:20 pace uphill

14 mile long run, 7:17 average

Week 4 - 87 miles

2x800m 2.5'r, 1x1200m 3.5'r, 2x1600m 5'r, 1x1200m 3.5'r, 2x800m 2.5'r (all on grass), everything between 4:50-5:02 pace

4x(3x400m, 0:30 rest) 3:00 rest, 70 average (track)

20:00 tempo (5:25 mile), 5:00 easy, 15:00 hard (5:05/mile), all on road

2x800m 2'r, 2x1200m 3'r, 2x1600m 4'r (all on track), pretty much all at 4:48 pace

No long run

Week 5 - 89 miles

8k cross country race in 25:25 (heavy rain postponed the race from the previous weekend, flat but sloppy course)

6 x 2k with 2:30 rest, on grass and hilly, 6:43 average (5:22/mile)

15 mile long run, 6:31 average

10 miler followed by 4 x 200m with 1:00 rest, all in 31.x

Week 6 - 81 miles

5 x broken 1600 (grass) with 4:00 rest and 400m jog (broken into 1k, 200 brisk, 400), average 3:06, 44, 73

10 x 600m (track) with 2:30 rest and 200m jog, 1:45 average

8k race in 25:27 (flat course but hot)

No long run

Week 7 - 75 miles

4:00, 5:00, 6:00, 6:00, 5:00, 4:00 on, 2:00 easy between each (grass and hilly), covered 7.5 miles at 5:44 average

1600m time trial in 4:23.2 followed by 3 mile controlled tempo at 5:37 average

No long run

Week 8 - 45 miles

1 x1600 4.5'r, 2x1200m 3.5'r, 3x800m 2.5'r (all on grass), all between 4:50-5:00 pace

5k time trial on track in 14:53 (previous PR was 15:13 from March 2013)

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So this was in the fall on 2014, and that 5k is still unfortunately my PR today. There are lots of things that I'd do differently looking back at that training, but obviously something worked about it since I still haven't beat that time. Here are some things that I think are key from that fall.

-Really consistent day-to-day and week-to-week training, 8 straight weeks of 80+ miles, peak of 101, only 2 days off in 11 weeks before the 5k

-Lots of workouts on grass, and most of that grass interval work was right at or under 5:00 pace

-Most of the mileage was at 6:30-7:00 pace, very occasionally slower or faster

-Lots of desire and motivation

Former Sub 14:00 wrote:

jewbacca wrote:

Here are comparable workouts I ran when I went 14:53. I believe I was in sub-14:50 shape at the time:

3 x 1600m [4:30 rests]; 2 x 800m [2:15 rest]; 1:00 rest after last 800m, then 1 x 300m fast

4:44, 4:43, 4:44, 2:21, 2:20, 45.2

6400m tempo [4:00 rest]; 3200m tempo

20:33 (5:06, 5:09, 5:07, 5:09); 10:26 (5:13, 5:13)

4 x 200m [1:10 rests]; 2 x 800m [4:30 rests]; 6 x 400m [2:10 rests]

34, 32, 33, 32

2:09, 2:09

62, 65, 63, 63, 63, 62

Hope that helps. Don't copy/paste these workouts -- there was a lot of training that led up to them.

You worked really hard to break 15:00. What was your background? That is too much in my opinion for what you got out of it. Anecdotally, I find ~30 seconds off of 5k pace a much better indicator than what a lot of people prescribe (which the OP is right at). Sounds like you were a bit underdeveloped aerobically and/or at a fundamental speed level.

wow, if i did those workouts i would have run 14:15

When I ran within a few seconds of 14:15, these workouts would have been done at under 4:40 for the 1600s (although I did 1000s more frequently than 1600s, and ran them in the low 2:50s), at under 5:00 for the threshold work, at around 28 for the 200s and at around 62-63 for the 400s.

All of these workouts are very close to what I was doing when running 14:50s.

run smarter not harder wrote:

Former Sub 14:00 wrote:

You worked really hard to break 15:00. What was your background? That is too much in my opinion for what you got out of it. Anecdotally, I find ~30 seconds off of 5k pace a much better indicator than what a lot of people prescribe (which the OP is right at). Sounds like you were a bit underdeveloped aerobically and/or at a fundamental speed level.

wow, if i did those workouts i would have run 14:15

That looks like appropriate for 14:53. None of that indicates 14:15 unless you mean 14:15 for 3 miles.

You must enter a name wrote:

run smarter not harder wrote:

wow, if i did those workouts i would have run 14:15

That looks like appropriate for 14:53. None of that indicates 14:15 unless you mean 14:15 for 3 miles.

I'm with 'run smarter not harder' on this. I'd run under 14:30 for sure off those workouts.

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

You must enter a name wrote:

That looks like appropriate for 14:53. None of that indicates 14:15 unless you mean 14:15 for 3 miles.

I'm with 'run smarter not harder' on this. I'd run under 14:30 for sure off those workouts.

In what world to mile repeats at 14:48 pace with nearly 5 minute rests translate to sub-14:30?

I find this a pretty interesting thread.

FWIW, I ran 14:47 and 3:56.2 during my junior spring. Jewbacca's first and third workouts seem totally reasonable to me in that fitness, but I'm quite certain that the tempo session (second workout) would have crushed me. Then again, I thought of myself as more of a 1500 - 3k runner and I was only running about 65 mpw that year. Maybe that makes the difference?

Perhaps we are learning something in this thread about how different a group of runners can react to similar training stimulus. I suspect weekly volume, easy run pace, mentality, and the type of program to which each runner is used to plays a role here (including the "standards of success" set by teammate performances). Along with genetics/muscle fiber makeup, of course.

OP's listed workouts strike me as 15-flatish workouts, but it's hard to judge without more context. Anyway, what do I know? Please update with results!

While it's not common, I had a teammate in college that never broke 4:20 in the mile but ran a 14:45 5K. Slow twitch kind of guy, but you don't need to be under 4:20 to break 14:50.

Stegosaurus wrote:

but I'm quite certain that the tempo session (second workout) would have crushed me. Then again, I thought of myself as more of a 1500 - 3k runner and I was only running about 65 mpw that year. Maybe that makes the difference?

Interesting. I viewed myself as an XC guy. At my best in XC I could hang with sub-14:20/sub-30 guys over 10k, though I don't think I'm capable of either of those. After college I stumbled on a coach who convinced me that dropping my mile time would improve everything else, and that was my first season using purely Daniels' methods. It worked, and honestly the tempo sessions were the least stressful of anything. Though I also think tempo pace plays to my strengths.

My 5000m PR is 14:19, with only a 3:59 1500m PR. I am not a super slow twitch guy with no speed, but I rarely raced at the 1500m/16000m/mile distance because I didn't run until I walked on to my college team my freshman year of college.

That's why all of these "What's the slowest possible time necessary at distance 'x' while still being able to run time 'y' at distance 'z'" threads are so goofy. Your strengths or weaknesses as a runner impact that analysis. Your running history impacts that analysis. Your team composition impacts that analysis (I would have run the 1500m more but we already had a good squad of middle distance runners, so I ran the 1500m once outdoors my junior year and once outdoors my senior year). Your coaches' approaches to training impacts that analysis.

I think there's a big misconception on this forum between true indicator workouts and "workouts a *insert time* guy could do." A true indicator workout would be a workout done at race pace or sub-race pace for a large portion of the race distance, take a SMALL rest then add in some work and the volume should be equal to or more than the race distance you're trying to predict for. A good 800 prediction would be something like 3x400 w/ 1 min rest, your avg pace is your 800 time.

To answer your question, no you can't really predict your 5k time from any of these efforts, but from working with a lot of sub-14:50 guys in college I would say you're ready to go for sub 14:50. However, I think you can answer the question better than any of us can, since your PR is already pretty close to your goal. What kind of times were you hitting for these types of workouts when you ran your PR? You'll find a better answer from that than any of us could give you.

jewbacca wrote:

Stegosaurus wrote:

but I'm quite certain that the tempo session (second workout) would have crushed me. Then again, I thought of myself as more of a 1500 - 3k runner and I was only running about 65 mpw that year. Maybe that makes the difference?

Interesting. I viewed myself as an XC guy. At my best in XC I could hang with sub-14:20/sub-30 guys over 10k, though I don't think I'm capable of either of those. After college I stumbled on a coach who convinced me that dropping my mile time would improve everything else, and that was my first season using purely Daniels' methods. It worked, and honestly the tempo sessions were the least stressful of anything. Though I also think tempo pace plays to my strengths.

That's funny - it seems that we are complementary runners. I had my "breakthrough" after my coach convinced me to invest in the threshold/tempo training that I always hated. I still kept fast 200s and 400s in the rotation, but did a lot more steady work during my long runs, upped my mileage to 80-ish mpw, and started doing actual structured "tempo runs" as meaningful workouts for the first time. Those felt like a real grind and I thought I was training like a 10k-HM runner rather than a middle distance runner, but I ultimately PR'd by a decent amount in the 1500, 3k, and 5k (800 time suffered a bit). Still felt more natural/fun to rip some 200s though.