Weak DMR?

The conversions are way off.

Perhaps someone can elaborate on this but I have heard that altitude conversions are based on sea-level-trained athletes competing at altitude - not altitude-trained athletes competing at altitude.

Track conversions were based off of historical performances set when no conversions were in play. This of course exaggerated the negative impact of 200 flat tracks as no good teams competed on them at that time. You can see that teams have figured out that the conversion is generous as they're heading to 200 flats to get qualifiers done.

To your first point that the conversions are way off. Any time you use statistical conversions it is impossible to get them accurate. To be completely accurate you would need to incorporate the size of the runner in the conversion. You also would need to add in the partial pressure of oxygen. There are many others that you would have to have in the formula, but at some point it becomes impossible.

The altitude conversions were done on sea-level athletes.

The flat track conversions for the NCAA and were based on historical data comparing flat track performances to banked/oversized for specific athletes. The research is actually listed on the NCAA website.

As far as Utah State not belonging in the NCAA Championship. Here is a better explanation why they do belong.

In 2014 Albuquerque hosted the NCAA Indoor Championship and everybody had to come to Albuquerque and compete. Compare the Distance Medley Relay results of that 2014 championship, and look how fast Utah State ran on Thursday, February 22nd. There are no conversion in these results, they are the raw final meet results. Utah State's men's Distance Medley Relay team would have WON the NCAA title with that time. So I do believe they belong.

2014 NCAA Men's DMR Results from Albuquerque

1. Stanford 9:37.63

2. Oregon 9:40.47

3. Indiana 9:41.23

4. Notre Dame 9:41.90

5. Columbia 9:42.48

6. Virginia Tech 9:42.83

7. Arkansas 9:43.19

8. Washington 9:44.75

9. Villanova 9:51.63

10.Georgetown 9:57.85

2018 Mountain West Conference Indoor Meet Results

1. New Mexico 9:33.41

2. Utah State 9:34.61

3. Colorado St. 9:49.11

4. Boise State 9:50.42

5. Air Force 9:54.00

6. Wyoming 10:06.29

Just further proof that the DMR is a joke.

The DMR is my favorite event. I don’t agree with the generous conversions for tracks or elevation. I think it should be about 1/4 of what they use. Even if accurate, I don’t like it. Next we will have outdoor conversions for wind and temperature.

Excellent questions but not exactly wrote:

As far as Utah State not belonging in the NCAA Championship. Here is a better explanation why they do belong.

I didn't intend to insinuate that USU doesn't belong at the meet. I was just surprised that they got such a high seed. I would've thought that there'd be a number of teams that had faster seed times and that USU would have somewhere between 8-12th seeds, if any. That's all.

Bruce Banner wrote:

Excellent questions but not exactly wrote:

As far as Utah State not belonging in the NCAA Championship. Here is a better explanation why they do belong.

I didn't intend to insinuate that USU doesn't belong at the meet. I was just surprised that they got such a high seed. I would've thought that there'd be a number of teams that had faster seed times and that USU would have somewhere between 8-12th seeds, if any. That's all.

Nice handle, OP.

Predictor wrote:

The DMR is my favorite event. I don’t agree with the generous conversions for tracks or elevation. I think it should be about 1/4 of what they use. Even if accurate, I don’t like it. Next we will have outdoor conversions for wind and temperature.

I wouldn't say DMR is my favorite- I prefer SC myself- but I do agree that it's fun and different.

If the conversions are so great, why don't teams find races at high elevation and shoot for fast times there? Teams like BYU or NAU who are already are adjusted to altitute probably would benefit the most from this. I suspect BYU's premature announcement wouldn't have been so bad if they already had a really nice adjusted time...

The DMR is hardly weak this year. The top 12 times are under 9:30. Last year only 4 teams had qualifying times under 9:30. USU matches up well with the other teams.

Bruce Banner wrote:

Predictor wrote:

The DMR is my favorite event. I don’t agree with the generous conversions for tracks or elevation. I think it should be about 1/4 of what they use. Even if accurate, I don’t like it. Next we will have outdoor conversions for wind and temperature.

I wouldn't say DMR is my favorite- I prefer SC myself- but I do agree that it's fun and different.

If the conversions are so great, why don't teams find races at high elevation and shoot for fast times there? Teams like BYU or NAU who are already are adjusted to altitute probably would benefit the most from this. I suspect BYU's premature announcement wouldn't have been so bad if they already had a really nice adjusted time...

Teams are doing that now. Lots of altitude schools are now opting for meets at Colorado, New Mexico, NAU, and Texas Tech to get their middle distance qualifiers. They still go to Iowa State and Seattle for their 3Ks and 5Ks for the most part, but altitude schools have started to figure out that conversions are the way to go for those mid d races and sea level schools have started to realize flat tracks are the way to go.

Altitude conversions get hashed around here as "too generous" every year at this time, and in almost every case, the conversions are vindicated at NCAAs, but those skeptics never own up to their error.

The most recent case was Ed Cheserek (who grew up at altitude by the way) who ran 3:53.7 in Albuquerque. People posted here how outrageous it was to convert that time to sea level. What did Ches run weeks later in Boston? Only the EXACT converted time from ABQ: 3:49.4. The numbers don't lie.

Hey conversion whiners: The NCAA knows far better what they are doing with track conversions than all the snot-nosed posters to this forum, even were they to gather in one massive basement in your mom's house.

Bruce Banner wrote:

Predictor wrote:

The DMR is my favorite event. I don’t agree with the generous conversions for tracks or elevation. I think it should be about 1/4 of what they use. Even if accurate, I don’t like it. Next we will have outdoor conversions for wind and temperature.

I wouldn't say DMR is my favorite- I prefer SC myself- but I do agree that it's fun and different.

If the conversions are so great, why don't teams find races at high elevation and shoot for fast times there? Teams like BYU or NAU who are already are adjusted to altitute probably would benefit the most from this. I suspect BYU's premature announcement wouldn't have been so bad if they already had a really nice adjusted time...

BYU does a mile outdoors every year where they get a bunch of sub par guys to regionals. they get an altitude conversion and then a generous mile to 1500 conversion. our coach almost took us to their meet one year to do the mile because he was shocked at some of their guys who made it to regionals the year before. guys who were running 3:51 at Stanford or Mt. SAC were getting a conversion down to 3:45 a few weeks later at their home meet.then they go to regionals and take 45th place.

Bruce Banner wrote:

USU qualified for the DMR with the number 2 seed in the country. *Time adjusted* They aren't exactly a distance powerhouse. True, they placed fairly well at NCAA XC nationals, but still. This surprises me.

What gives? Is it just a weak event? Did USU just care more than other schools?

If I recall correctly, their best runner barely got around 4:01 for the 1600m leg- a time that BYU's Clinger was running as a high schooler. Why doesn't BYU have a faster seed time?

Sorry, the old Casey can't come to the phone right now. Why? Oh, cause he's on a Mormon Mission.

new mexico did the same thing last year, kerr will b1tch out of the dmr and they will get spanked. serves them right for using AMERICAN tax dollars through a public state institution to fund foreigners coming here and living for free.

teardrops on my guitar wrote:

Bruce Banner wrote:

USU qualified for the DMR with the number 2 seed in the country. *Time adjusted* They aren't exactly a distance powerhouse. True, they placed fairly well at NCAA XC nationals, but still. This surprises me.

What gives? Is it just a weak event? Did USU just care more than other schools?

If I recall correctly, their best runner barely got around 4:01 for the 1600m leg- a time that BYU's Clinger was running as a high schooler. Why doesn't BYU have a faster seed time?

Sorry, the old Casey can't come to the phone right now. Why? Oh, cause he's on a Mormon Mission.

Didn't realize Clinger already left. I thought he would've taken a full year.

Not the same. Edward Cheserek was a few weeks fitter and had perfect pacing. You could also argue BU is a fast track, and Ches had to lead the whole way in ABQ

NCAA Mile prelim results from last year:

1 Edward CHESEREK SR Oregon 3:59.30 Q 1 (1)

2 Matthew MATON SO Oregon 3:59.73 Q 1 (2)

3 ***Josh KERR FR New Mexico 3:59.90 Q 2 (1)

4 Joshua THOMPSON SR Oklahoma State 3:59.94 Q 1 (3)

5 Neil GOURLEY JR Virginia Tech 4:00.10 Q 1 (4)

6 ***Ben SAAREL SR Colorado 4:00.39 Q 2 (2)

7 Adam PALAMAR SR Syracuse 4:00.71 Q 2 (3)

8 Liam DEE SO Iona 4:00.72 Q 2 (4)

9 Sampson LAARI SR Mid. Tenn. State 4:00.73 q 2 (5)

10 Thomas JOYCE SR California 4:01.02 (4:01.012) q 1 (5)

11 ***Jonah KOECH SO UTEP 4:01.02 (4:01.019) 1 (6)

12 Tim GORMAN SR Oregon 4:01.19 1 (7)

13 ***Dillon MAGGARD JR Utah State 4:01.25 2 (6)

14 Matthew FAYERS JR Oklahoma State 4:01.62 2 (7)

15 ***Zach PERRIN JR Colorado 4:03.48 2 (8)

16 Ned WILLIG SR Michigan 4:05.48 1 (8)

Perrin was #4 overall seed with 3:56

Ben Saarel was #5 overall seed with 3:56

Koech was #7 overall seed with 3:57

Kerr was #9 overall seed with 3:58

Maggard was #13 overall seed with 3:58

Ben Saarel made the final but got 9th in the final

Josh Kerr is a stud

Cheserek isn't the only one who has proven himself as fit as the conversion. Soratos showed he was legit at NCAAs. Prelim times are also usually a pretty poor indication of true fitness and mostly just tell you a lot about how prepared a kid is to have to race people who REALLY know how to race.

Sure, the conversions are not perfect, but they get things close enough. You trust your Garmin to get you to the "exact" mileage, but all it can do is get you close. Suck it up, let the kids race, and enjoy the show next week.

Another thought, if you want to look at a place where teams have proved equivalent fitness to their conversion, look at Christopher Newport's men in D3. They've gone to various meets banked and flat track. Ran the same DMR team at two different meets.

Feb 3 @ Camel City ran 10:10 which converted to 10:02, the very next week ran 9:58 at BU Valentine. Last weekend ran almost the same team at JDL Last chance (different 400 leg, minimal difference in times) and ran 10:06 which converted to 9:58.

No altitude conversions at use there, but I think the flat track to banked are pretty decent. You can look at the capability and times of CNU's mid D guys in the 800 and mile too, and I think you'll find their times match up with he conversions.

Wisconsin had a weak DMR at the Indoor BiG 10's. I know they didn't run their studs but a distance rich school like Wisconsin should be able to put together something better than a 2nd to last place showing. Time for some new coaching at Wisconsin?

I admit I am a little biased because my cousin ran on this USU team. I watched BYU and NAU in cross country regionals and they both have incredible teams. However, USU deserves some credit for training hard for this event with talented middle distance runners. If if weren't for their 800m (leg 3) having to run another 800m race an hour earlier, they might have won it. They were in first place going into leg 3 and Dillon Maggard clocked the fasted 1600 meter time of the race (3:56.53) to bring them back from 9th to 5th place. https://www.ncaa.com/sites/default/files/external/track-field/results/d1/indoor18/010-1-01.htm