Am I underachieving in the 5k based on this workout?

My PR is 16:42 on a track and I'm not sure I could have done that workout at the time. I also don't think it's a workout really designed to maximize at 5000 meters. You could probably run a bit faster with more racing, and a lot faster if that workout is indicative of your overall training (by doing more 5k specific training)

asdfffds wrote:

My PR is 16:42 on a track and I'm not sure I could have done that workout at the time. I also don't think it's a workout really designed to maximize at 5000 meters. You could probably run a bit faster with more racing, and a lot faster if that workout is indicative of your overall training (by doing more 5k specific training)

I hear what you are saying, my goal is also to maximize my 10k potential to try and PR at that distance in the Spring and maybe try a half in the summer, so I do a lot of high mileage and longer harder intervals, in part because I feel like I excel at those over pure speed work.

I guess my confusion is I do shorter stuff like 1k intervals and 400s and miles at sub 5k race pace (for me) on the track and this is what I view as more "5k specific" type work. I can also do a very solid longer workout like I did today, yet in the race itself I struggle to maintain 520 pace. Admittedly I do not race 5ks back to back to back currently, I just sort of train myself and hop into races here and there. Even so, I still think my 5k speed should be better than 1642.

Any advice on workouts I am missing? Fewer miles at race pace or faster? I am not sure what boxes I am not checking right now.

1 tiny bump. ( I realize I'm probably overthinking this since I have been making good progress in training generally.)

Yes you definitely are an endurance monster! You'll do great in the 10k and beyond for sure.

As far as 5k, you definitely need to do some more specific speed work to perfect your top-end speed and turn over. How often do you do 400's faster than 5k pace? Maybe try a quicker session @ 70s or under - get yourself uncomfortable. Do some hard all out efforts after tempo runs or other similar workouts too. Say you do a tempo, give yourself a couple minutes rest and then hammer a hard 400 or 600. I feel like you've just gotten too comfortable at your 5k pace that anything faster shocks your system. Get comfortable with being uncomfortable and get some quick speed work done with lower reps and longer rests but higher intensity.

Don't forget your strides too! Work wonders to get that fast pop in your legs after easy days so you don't get too lethargic.

Thanks for this advice. I don't get to a track too often but the last track workout I did was 12x400 with a minute rest and a 2 minute rest every 4th 400 averaging 1:12-1:14. These felt hard but not "shocking the system" I guess. Every 4th 400 I did a relatively fast mile 5:06, 5:13 and 5:12. Now perhaps my pace on my watch was a bit wonky so maybe these miles were closer to 515-518ish pace. But is this the kind of workout I need to do more of for a 5k? Or are you suggesting even more 400s and below at even faster pace? I just always used to think 1k intervals and 400s and miles that are fast but controlled were all I really needed interval wise, and I am not sure how to add in different stimulus without overdoing it.

I train 100% percent alone and have zero guidance really except hitting workouts like these hard so any advice is appreciated. Or links to a advanced 5k plan. 10k is definitely my favorite distance but I would love to break 16 in a 5k one day.

You're on the right track! The 400 workout was pretty good. Also I encourage you to do a workout like 8x800 with 2 minute or so recoveries in around 2:25 or so. A 15:59 is 5:08 pace so you want to get as much exposure to that kind of quick effort as you can. It's great you can pound out 5:30 miles all day long and that's perfect for the 10k and beyond but for 5k you need to get past that barrier and work on even faster more anaerobic turnover based work.

It's all about callusing your body to what it will go through during the 5k. Get tough and get the lactic acid flowing!

5kspecifics wrote:

You're on the right track! The 400 workout was pretty good. Also I encourage you to do a workout like 8x800 with 2 minute or so recoveries in around 2:25 or so. A 15:59 is 5:08 pace so you want to get as much exposure to that kind of quick effort as you can. It's great you can pound out 5:30 miles all day long and that's perfect for the 10k and beyond but for 5k you need to get past that barrier and work on even faster more anaerobic turnover based work.

It's all about callusing your body to what it will go through during the 5k. Get tough and get the lactic acid flowing!

Makes sense. I guess a last question about workout rest periods for a 5k? Would doing miles and thousands with a 1 minute rest? or jogging a 400 for rest and then doing 4-6 at race pace be a good workout? Or doing them much faster than race pace with a longer race. How does length of rest vs pace for interval matter? I just try to take no more than 1 1/2 or 2 mins rest for anything shorter than 2 mile intervals (longest I ever do) Because I already do a lot of 1ks at faster than 5k pace, yet it doesn't seem to translate as well, at least not yet, to the roads. Or are 800s at a quicker pace better than adding on an extra 200m for the 1k? I guess I can play around with it some.

Again thanks.

No, it just means you are a workout warrior and that is not a compliment

Reality czech wrote:

No, it just means you are a workout warrior and that is not a compliment

Workout was pretty hard but controlled. Definitely not a race effort. Workout warrior would imply I burn myself out for races which is not true, I taper for any serious race. But thanks for adding nothing of value to the thread.

He is running 5K at 5:22 a mile, and you think he needs to "do some more specific speed work to perfect your top-end speed and turn over"? For most people that would be a 13-14 second 100m or 27-29 for 200m. How would that help him?

At the moment, you're a 16:42 5k runner, so train like that until you race faster. My thoughts:

1. Do one lactate threshold work every week, either a run of 4-6 miles around 5:45-5:55 pace, or some 4-6 miles worth of lactate threshold repeats at 5:40-5:45 pace (5:1 work to rest ratio)

2. Every other week, do a moderate paced long run, 6:25-30 pace. Just do easy long runs on the other weeks.

3. Every week, take a session to do some hill sprints, something like 8x50m with full rest

4. Every other week, do a really light speed workout, something like 8x200m or 8x300m @ 5:00 pace with 2:00 rest. Focus on running as relaxed as possible at that pace.

5. Do some kind of ancillary work 5 days per week, focusing on hip strength/mobility, lower leg stability, and core stability

Train like that for 6 weeks, and you'll PR assuming your taking the necessary steps to recover. Mileage doesn't need to be anything out of this world, just consistent training through 6 weeks. Your workout does indicate that you should be faster than 16:42, but if you're racing at a much lower level than you're training, that usually means you're training too hard.

PRDreamer wrote:

Reality czech wrote:

No, it just means you are a workout warrior and that is not a compliment

Workout was pretty hard but controlled. Definitely not a race effort. Workout warrior would imply I burn myself out for races which is not true, I taper for any serious race. But thanks for adding nothing of value to the thread.

The value is there if you look for it but you'd rather everyone tell you that you are so great and selling yourself short.

10x1 miles at 8s per mile slower than 5k pace is a terrible workout and adds nothing but I know people like you, you will say that your 5k is soft but it's not, it's what you ran for a 5k and is a better indicator of your training than anything else you have posted. When race times and workouts do not match up= workout warrior.

10x1 mile at 5:30 pace is a good workout for a 2:25 marathon runner. 10x1 mile at 5:30 is a stupid workout for a 16 minute runner even if they are a 16:01 runner. Run very low 15 for 5k and I may say differently but that taper comment makes me think you are a troll anyway.

Thanks for stealing my favorite username, dude. Now I'm going to have to come up with another one.

asdfffds wrote:

My PR is 16:42 on a track and I'm not sure I could have done that workout at the time.

My PR was 16:43 (road) for quite some time at one point, and I think *perhaps* I could have done this workout, but it would have been near race-effort by the end, and perhaps I would have only managed 8 of them. I would almost have to taper for it.

If you changed the speed to HM mile pace but kept everything the same, it would STILL be a really, really hard workout.

The guy who used to go by reality czech wrote:

Thanks for stealing my favorite username, dude. Now I'm going to have to come up with another one.

I didn't know, have it back

[quote]Ben Barrows wrote:

At the moment, you're a 16:42 5k runner, so train like that until you race faster. My thoughts:

1. Do one lactate threshold work every week, either a run of 4-6 miles around 5:45-5:55 pace, or some 4-6 miles worth of lactate threshold repeats at 5:40-5:45 pace (5:1 work to rest ratio)

2. Every other week, do a moderate paced long run, 6:25-30 pace. Just do easy long runs on the other weeks.

3. Every week, take a session to do some hill sprints, something like 8x50m with full rest

4. Every other week, do a really light speed workout, something like 8x200m or 8x300m @ 5:00 pace with 2:00 rest. Focus on running as relaxed as possible at that pace.

5. Do some kind of ancillary work 5 days per week, focusing on hip strength/mobility, lower leg stability, and core stability

Thanks for the suggestions Ben, I really enjoy watching your Youtube content. I will try and back off these huge workouts and incorporate some shorter speed stuff and a moderate paced long run (which is one thing I rarely do). My lactate threshold run is usually a 5 miler around 5:45-50 pace currently so at least that's one element I feel is paced correctly.

One reason I feel compelled to do such large workouts and high mileage is that I don't feel like I can improve any other way. But 6 weeks more oriented on speed will be something I haven't tried yet.

reality czech wrote:

PRDreamer wrote:

[quote]Reality czech wrote:

No, it just means you are a workout warrior and that is not a compliment

Workout was pretty hard but controlled. Definitely not a race effort. Workout warrior would imply I burn myself out for races which is not true, I taper for any serious race. But thanks for adding nothing of value to the thread.

The value is there if you look for it but you'd rather everyone tell you that you are so great and selling yourself short.

10x1 miles at 8s per mile slower than 5k pace is a terrible workout and adds nothing but I know people like you, you will say that your 5k is soft but it's not, it's what you ran for a 5k and is a better indicator of your training than anything else you have posted. When race times and workouts do not match up= workout warrior.

Nope I would never say it is soft, it is my current PR. I returned to serious training (for me) 2 years ago after a 3 yr hiatus, In It has been a long road to this point and in October I ran 17:40 then a 35:14 10k in November and now a 16:42 5k. So I am improving but I have no illusions that I am in any better shape than the times I have run. I simply seem to be doing workouts that are good for my overall fitness, but perhaps not as focused as they could be for maximizing my speed on race day. So I am asking for suggestions which every other poster besides your provided haha.

I didn't read the whole thread, but maybe the 5k was a little long.

lollerama wrote:

asdfffds wrote:

My PR is 16:42 on a track and I'm not sure I could have done that workout at the time.

My PR was 16:43 (road) for quite some time at one point, and I think *perhaps* I could have done this workout, but it would have been near race-effort by the end, and perhaps I would have only managed 8 of them. I would almost have to taper for it.

Do people really do 10 x mile workouts? If anything I do 10 x km, 6 x mile. To go that far I'd do 5 x 2 miles or 3 x 3 miles.

Anyway, there is no way I, who was ultimately best at 10k, would have been able to do that workout until I was a sub 16:00 guy. You absolutely need to do some 200 and 400 to reach your potential at any event.