Why is lactate produced durin strength work not a problem during base phase?

It is not a problem, ever. If you're hearing a consensus that it is, stop listening to anybody and assemble an entirely new set of people to get opinions from.

Lactate is not what causes the muscles to burn, it is a negative ion present around the same time free hydrogen (H+, which is postive) abounds from anaerobic glycolysis. Lactate does no harm and is simply recycled and burned as fuel. The hydrogen is transported to the blood where it reacts with bicarbonate (HCO3-) to produce CO2 and H2O. The CO2 is then exhaled.

Muscle pH has to be low to get the maximum aerobic workout, because gas exchange is fastest when the pH differential between blood and muscle is high. That's why you need to be warmed up to run fast. After your workout ends, pH returns to normal very quickly. Once your warmup is gone, so is the "lactate."

Then stop doing calf raises to the point where it burns. It has no relevance to running.

That isn't even remotely a consensus. If you wanted to make the more narrow statement that spending extended time at maximum ventilation (between around 5k to 1500 race paces) in workouts isn't good during a base phase, as it can lead to burnout, you might gain some more traction, but its still far from a general consensus. Diving deeper here, or even with your original statement, think about what else is going on physiologically when you're accumulating high levels of lactate and acidity while running compared to ways you typically feel a burn strength training. How often is your heart rate and ventilation at or near maximum output when you're strength training? You accumulate acidity when running at these paces because your cardiovascular system is completely maxed out and can't keep up with whole body demand, while in strength training the relatively continuous load on a relatively small region of the body means that muscle group(s) is working harder than can be maintained, but the rest of your body system is sub-maximally taxed.

Two facts to keep in mind if you want to think about this topic further:

Moderate lactate production in the muscles is associated with enhanced recovery, compared with both non-production or high levels of production.

Calf raises are garbage for runners unless you have underlying Achilles or calf cramping issues.

Dumbquestioner wrote:

The general consensus in the running community seems to be that you should avoid accumulating lactate in workouts during the base phase to avoid burning out. I do a regular strength routine and I have noticed that with many exercises the muscles are clearly producing lactate (I get the same burning sensation as when running hard anaerobically). It can be very intense with calf raises.

Could this be an issue?

Then your strength training really isn’t improving strength is it?

There is a huge different between a 5 rep max and even a 10 rep max.

Strength train to get strong.

Alan

Bad:

This is a pretty good summary of the physiology and I think you're one of the better posters on these boards. However, most runners are not physiologists and you don't need to jump down their throats. You know exactly what he was talking about.

To the original question:

When people talk about accumulating lactate or going anaerobic, what they really mean is that they are doing workouts where the body's circulatory system is maxed out for extended periods of time, causing a low pH level throughout the body, but particularly in the muscles that are working hard. When people advise you not to do this in the base phase, there are a couple of reasons they do so.

1. This type of training is mentally stressful. Most coaches agree that the best way to build fitness in the base phase is to gradually raise the level of training (volume, speed, strength, whatever....) in a gradual manner. If you are constantly having to psyche yourself up to get out the door in December, because you know your workout is going to really hurt, you are less likely to do it. Even if you do manage to get out the door for something really hard during base phase, you might be dipping too far into your mental/emotional well. Perhaps there won't be much left there when it's time to race hard in April and May.

2. Any time you train, there is the chance of injury. The harder you train, the greater the chance. If you don't want to get injured, don't train. If you want to train and improve during the off season, look for the types of sessions that have the highest reward:risk ratio. These types of sessions are generally considered to be: Easy mileage, strides, Tempo (so many definitions of this word, so COMFORTABLY FAST) runs. The strength training that is usually considered safe and beneficial is training that will supplement your body's ability to handle the running training you are doing.

3. You are correct that the burn you feel is associated with reduced muscle pH. However that burn is not a bad thing. Localized acidosis (as previously stated) is not the same as acidosis due to full body oxygen uptake being exceeded. If my biceps burn during a set of curls, it's not going to affect the recovery of my legs from my running workout. If your calves burn during calf raises, it's only a problem if they are too sore the next day to allow you to do your actual running workout.

Should have added:

4. In a race, your body needs to be really good at producing and buffering the hydrogen ions produced as a byproduct lactate production. In the base phase, it is perfectly acceptable to give your body small doses training that will improve your body's ability to do so. When you do training that creates acidosis, do it in small amounts with plenty of recovery.

So: strides, short reps (150-300m) at 800-1600 pace with plenty of recovery, circuit style strength training....these all can give you the ability to generate and tolerate lower pH.

Good discussion. Just to be clear...

That burning sensation which forces us to slow down is caused by an accumulation of waste products (hydrogen ions etc...) that lower the pH? And this metabolic reaction is called anaerobic glycolysis?

Then why do physiologists use markers such as mmol of lactate?

I’ve heard others say that 4 mmol of lactate is some kind of threshold?

I understand that lactate is used as fuel and is not the enemy per say but why do we measure it in the lab?

Also, do 150m strides really cause acidosis? For me, 300m strides build tolerance and it FEELS much harder. But I was surprised to read from coachB that something as short as 150m could be presenting that kind of stimulus.

This can be answered without going into any physiology, but purely with developing an understanding of what your training goals are, in the short term, mid term, and long term, and what training you respond to, to achieve these goals. What are you trying to achieve "during the base phase"? Do workouts that "accumulate lactate" help achieve that? Or, conversely, does it interfere with, hinder, or prevent that? Most athletes using a phased approach to training, use the base phase to build endurance, as a primary goal. Some phased approaches include workouts in the "base phase" to not "lose speed", but in a measured way. Strength routines that "burn", probably do not interfere with your training, but if it does, you should reconsider why you do them.

Dumbquestioner wrote:

The general consensus in the running community seems to be that you should avoid accumulating lactate in workouts during the base phase to avoid burning out. I do a regular strength routine and I have noticed that with many exercises the muscles are clearly producing lactate (I get the same burning sensation as when running hard anaerobically). It can be very intense with calf raises.

Could this be an issue?

Xvbnnnbb wrote:

Good discussion. Just to be clear...

That burning sensation which forces us to slow down is caused by an accumulation of waste products (hydrogen ions etc...) that lower the pH? And this metabolic reaction is called anaerobic glycolysis?

Then why do physiologists use markers such as mmol of lactate?

I’ve heard others say that 4 mmol of lactate is some kind of threshold?

I understand that lactate is used as fuel and is not the enemy per say but why do we measure it in the lab?

Also, do 150m strides really cause acidosis? For me, 300m strides build tolerance and it FEELS much harder. But I was surprised to read from coachB that something as short as 150m could be presenting that kind of stimulus.

What happens when you run a fast 300m? Or 150m or 100m? Look at the bioenergetics. First 10s or so it’s all ATP-CP...aka Phosphagen system. But then this system needs time to replenish. If you did something as simple as 10s sprint, 10s walk, for as long as you can you’re going to build up a lot lactate (and the associated hydrogen ions that cause that “burning”). Compared to 10s sprint, 2-3min walk....not so much build up. You can play with this up to 150m, 300m, really any short distance sprint. 300m is starting to get long though as the aerobic system starts to play a more important role.

Alan

Try this one day.....20s sprint....10s walk.....repeat 8x.

There’s a reason why Tabata originated as a speed skating workout.

Alan

Xvbnnnbb wrote:

Good discussion. Just to be clear...

1. That burning sensation which forces us to slow down is caused by an accumulation of waste products (hydrogen ions etc...) that lower the pH? And this metabolic reaction is called anaerobic glycolysis?

2. Then why do physiologists use markers such as mmol of lactate?

3. I’ve heard others say that 4 mmol of lactate is some kind of threshold?

4. I understand that lactate is used as fuel and is not the enemy per say but why do we measure it in the lab?

5. Also, do 150m strides really cause acidosis? For me, 300m strides build tolerance and it FEELS much harder. But I was surprised to read from coachB that something as short as 150m could be presenting that kind of stimulus.

1. All carbohydrate metabolism starts with anaerobic glycolysis. This produces a net gain of 2 ATP. If there is enough oxygen present, the pyruvate produced from glycolysis will be converted into two molecules of acetyl CoA and taken into the mitochondrion where it will produce a truckload of ATP.

If there is not enough oxygen present in the muscle to convert all of the pyruvate to acetyl CoA, some of that pyruvate will be converted to lactate. This is done in order to free up NAD+ molecules (which are consumed during glycolysis). This process is called anaerobic fermentation and is what actually produces lactate. Same process that makes yogurt taste sour.

Lactate can then disassociate (lose a hydrogen ion). It is the disassociation of lactate that produces the drop in muscle pH (calling it acidosis isn't really correct, because pH drops, if I remember correctly, from 7.4 to 7.2 or so). If I don't have the numbers right, it's been a while since grad school.

2. mmol of lactate is a standard marker of muscular fatigue because as work rate increases, so does blood lactate. To be clear, the body is always producing lactate, but at rest or low exercise intensities, that lactate is converted back to pyruvate to be used as a fuel. As work rate increases, there is less oxygen available to convert the lactate back to pyruvate, so it begins to build up and tissue pH begins to drop.

3. The 4 mmol "threshold" is kind of arbitrary. When work rate (running speed in our case) increases at a linear rate, there will be a break point where blood lactate begins to accumulate at a non linear rate (i.e., even though running speed is increasing at a constant rate, blood lactate will suddenly begin to increase at a far faster rate). For many people this happens at around a running speed that will produce a blood lactate level of around 4 mmol/dL. (I think deciliter is the right unit here). So, coaches will use the 4 mmol standard as the "lactate threshold", or more specifically OBLA (onset of blood lactate accumulation).

4. Blood lactate is a relatively easy to measure marker of fatigue, see the last paragraph of point #1.

5. Any work where a muscle is being asked to produce ATP at a rate higher than it can do aerobically will produce a small amount of acidosis. I'm thinking of a girl that I had a few years ago who was a 2:29 800m runner. Early in the pre season, we were doing 150 @ 27 seconds (a little bit faster than PR pace) and she was feeling them. As she got fitter and fitter, we extended the time she could run at that pace. Eventually, she was doing 500s at 90 seconds (2:24 pace). She ended up running 2:25 that year. Think of doing anaerobic work as inoculating the body to decreased pH levels. If your body is already inoculated so that 300m at 800m pace is not stressful, then you wouldn't get a ton of benefit from 150s (unless you did a bunch of them with short rest). For a kid who maybe isn't super fit, 150 might be enough.

Probably the best concise explanation of bioenergetics I’ve read on this site in a long time. Thank you.

My interest in this, from a self-coaching standpoint, is wanting to really limit the number of times I lower the pH of the muscles in training. I discovered over the years, especially as I got older, that my body breaks down easily when I run faster than HM pace for too long. So I try to stay away from long, fast intervals especiallly with short recoveries.

As I’m understanding it, the safe zone for me would be “staying aerobic” and I am going to touch on the speed side, keep things short (alactic) and with plenty of rest between repeats.

One of my favorite workouts is 200on/200off but even that as I understand it now is lowering muscle pH

Fhjjdgknhj wrote:

Probably the best concise explanation of bioenergetics I’ve read on this site in a long time. Thank you.

My interest in this, from a self-coaching standpoint, is wanting to really limit the number of times I lower the pH of the muscles in training. I discovered over the years, especially as I got older, that my body breaks down easily when I run faster than HM pace for too long. So I try to stay away from long, fast intervals especiallly with short recoveries.

As I’m understanding it, the safe zone for me would be “staying aerobic” and I am going to touch on the speed side, keep things short (alactic) and with plenty of rest between repeats.

One of my favorite workouts is 200on/200off but even that as I understand it now is lowering muscle pH

Then you’re just feeding the problem.

Body won’t adapt without a stimulus.

Do the intervals....but work on recovery/mobility to prevent you from breaking down.

As we get older we tend to need a longer recovery time. So in your 20s maybe you could do 2 hard workouts per week but now in your 40s doing 2 would lead to overreaching...so stick to 1....OR reduce the volume of the workout....OR increase the rest. What provided an adaptive stimulus in your 20s may become overreaching in your 40s.

Alan

Fhjjdgknhj wrote:

One of my favorite workouts is 200on/200off but even that as I understand it now is lowering muscle pH

200 on 200 off lowers muscle pH, but if the rest period is slow enough, then pH will return back toward resting values between each rep. It sounds like what you are worried about is a workout where your pH drops and stays low for extended periods. You don't need to abandon your favorite workout.

Fair point. However, I am still giving my body a new stimulus. In my younger years, I never fully developed aerobically. I never ran mileage above 30-40mpw. I never focused on running at best aerobic pace for long, steady efforts. That’s what I’m digging into now without neglecting the neuromuscular system.

I did my undergrad research on strength training and measuring blood lactate profiles with different regimens. The more blood lactate + H+ you produce (~heavier the load/working to fatigue), the more growth hormone that's released as well (triggered by the H+ specifically, WJ Kraemer at Connecticut is the guru on this topic). Even more specific is if there's an eccentric component (~muscle lengthening, or the controlled dropping down part while doing calf raises) there's also greater growth hormone release. Knowing this, because the release is systemic to the rest of the body, you could do heavy upper body strength training and gain the benefits of the growth hormone to help the body recover and get stronger.

jaguar1 wrote:

I did my undergrad research on strength training and measuring blood lactate profiles with different regimens. The more blood lactate + H+ you produce (~heavier the load/working to fatigue), the more growth hormone that's released as well (triggered by the H+ specifically, WJ Kraemer at Connecticut is the guru on this topic). Even more specific is if there's an eccentric component (~muscle lengthening, or the controlled dropping down part while doing calf raises) there's also greater growth hormone release. Knowing this, because the release is systemic to the rest of the body, you could do heavy upper body strength training and gain the benefits of the growth hormone to help the body recover and get stronger.

If that is true then why do people who overtrain experience decreased levels of testosterone and thyroid and generally have a harder time recovering?

Gee what wrote:

jaguar1 wrote:

I did my undergrad research on strength training and measuring blood lactate profiles with different regimens. The more blood lactate + H+ you produce (~heavier the load/working to fatigue), the more growth hormone that's released as well (triggered by the H+ specifically, WJ Kraemer at Connecticut is the guru on this topic). Even more specific is if there's an eccentric component (~muscle lengthening, or the controlled dropping down part while doing calf raises) there's also greater growth hormone release. Knowing this, because the release is systemic to the rest of the body, you could do heavy upper body strength training and gain the benefits of the growth hormone to help the body recover and get stronger.

If that is true then why do people who overtrain experience decreased levels of testosterone and thyroid and generally have a harder time recovering?

Because training and over-training are not the same thing. The real question people should be asking is, "how do I get the biggest training benefit with the least risk of injury/illness". The answer will differ depending on the athlete. For some athletes this might mean 120mpw. For others, it might mean 4 fast sessions on the track per week.

I coached a kid who ran 1:56 as a high schooler. I never thought I was getting the best out of him. He ran cross and I mostly trained him like a 800-1600 runner throughout high school.

He got to college and ran 1:51 high within a year. He ran 1:50.3 the following year. He did this by training more like a 400-800 type.

Because along with positive hormonal outcomes, high end training produces negative ones, most notably cortisol. Cortisol has a laundry list of effects, some positive, but many more adverse.