Is HADD style heart rate training rubbish?

80% of your max heart rate?

That's WAY TOO HARD for easy running. Are you serious? 80% of your max is approaching LT heart rate. No wonder you haven't improved. Even 75% is too high for someone who lacks aerobic fitness.

And no, it isn't rubbish unless you consider all the monster improvement numerous people have made using this program.

I started running less than 2 years ago when I turned 40 after 20+ years off (I'm an old fart) After following HADD for about 6 months, I went from a 1:38 Half Mary to a 1:24. Next year expect/hope to get down to under 1:15. Not overly fast for some of the speed demons on this board but it's all relative. The problem with HADD is it is not conducive to youth. I assume you're relatively young? It requires LOTS of patience. You will get MUCH slower before you get faster. I was almost at 10:00 pace to keep with in my HR zones BUT then it started to change. My average "no brainer" pace is now ~7:15. Give it a chance. It REALLY does work.

Good luck

You need to find out your max heart rate first. Having said that, keep your hr under 70% on easy days and 75-80% on your harder days two times a week. If you are in doubt, always go a bit easier. Once you become more aerobically fit ( this takes some time and patience at the lower hr's) you will be able to hammer those harder days at a higher percentage of max hr because your lt will have increased. Another thing to note is that lt and hr do not always correlate as neatly as we'd like. It may be 156 in the am and 165 later that eve. Also, your lt gets pushed up during the course of your run. Think about this. If you were to bolt out the door right away at hr140, you'd be ahead of your lt and would probably have a miserable run because you haven't allowed your body's aerobic systems to kick in yet. The lactate threshold of an untrained runner compared to that of a world class marathoner are worlds apart. The elite marathoner may not hit his lt until 85% mhr, whereas the untrained runner may hit his at a mere 75% or lower. Use the hr monitor as an aid but listen to your body as well. If you are patient, you can nudge your lt up and get more out of yourself, so to speak. Do a search for Hadd and really read through all of the posts to get a full understanding. He really does explain it quite thoroughly if you dig deep enough for the info.

What monstrous improvements are we speaking of? I must have missed them.

PS. Joe quit.

don't listen to anyone who says "half mary".

I should note I did not follow the program strictly. I am running near 80% because 70% is simply too slow-I don't mean 10 minute mile slow, I mean 13 minute mile slow-virtually walking. I don't think 80% is "way too hard"-HADD himself said it is OK to start at 80% if your aerobic pace is too slow.

Yes, I am young (18). I have patience; it is just that I haven't seen one iota of improvement in three weeks!

But Hadd expected those to be like 14 year old girls who were running 20 miles a week. I ran around 9-10 minute pace for a lot of my runs before my freshman year of college and dropped two minutes of my 5k time (17 to 15).

How do you know Joe quit?

There a bunch on this board who used it and improve, and he gave many examples of people in Italy, too.

I ran with heart rate training and high mileage for almost a year. I had great results and I ran a 5K PR in my first 5K of the season. Then I took several weeks off due to bad shin pain.

For those of you that had success with HADD/HR training, how long did it take before you noticed improvements? Could you post an example of improvements in your aerobic pace at a set HR %age?

I didn't really follow it after the summer, but it is what allowed me to make the big jump. Once I did more faster work, I felt very comfortable at 7:15-7:45 miles.

HR cannot and is not a complete picture of training intensity. Consider a day that it is 40 degrees out. Your LT velocity is 5:20, ok? Now let's say it suddenly increases to 90 degrees, because you live in Ohio. Now, can you do an LT tempo run at 5:20/mile? No you can't. Two things will happen. 1. You'll overhead and 2. Your HR will go way above your "LT heart rate."

A logical thinker would say, ah, just adjust your intensity, to say, 5:40, where the HR's match!

Well guess what, your LT pace is STILL 5:20, regardless of the increased HR. Your body's energy system doesn't care whether it's hot out or not. Doesn't care whether your HR says you are at LT, if you are not.

The same principle applies for recovery pace. HR is NOT a complete picture and that's why it is not that successful as a be all end all.

Here's my improvement in my Hadd Tests. I am not a speedster by any means.

140 150 160 170 180

May 04 9:40 8:30 7:34 6:53 6:02

Sep 04 8:48 7:43 7:13 6:33 5:56

Jan 05 8:02 7:27 6:58 6:20 5:47

Apr 05 7:33 7:02 6:35 6:09 5:39

Those tests were over the course of 9 months. I did a test at roughly regular intervals. I am now working towards a series of June races. My 5k PR prior to starting this was 19:57. In the middle of an 88 mile week I did a 5k in 18:38 just a week ago.

My running friend who runs 16:20 for 5k could not run anything better than 2:50 for a Marathon.

After years of injuries,illness and frustration he decided to try Hadd.

Like you,he found the slow runs way to slow but persevered.

I can recall him complaining."I almost have to walk up the hills"

After about 6 months,He looked healthy,he felt stronger,he has remained uninjured.

He claims he feels fresher and he is racing well.

Recently he finished second in a major city Half Marathon.

On july 4 he competes in his first full Marathon Since starting this program.

My feeling is he will NAIL IT.

Gavin Newsome wrote:

Here's my improvement in my Hadd Tests. I am not a speedster by any means.

140 150 160 170 180

May 04 9:40 8:30 7:34 6:53 6:02

Sep 04 8:48 7:43 7:13 6:33 5:56

Jan 05 8:02 7:27 6:58 6:20 5:47

Apr 05 7:33 7:02 6:35 6:09 5:39

Those tests were over the course of 9 months. I did a test at roughly regular intervals. I am now working towards a series of June races. My 5k PR prior to starting this was 19:57. In the middle of an 88 mile week I did a 5k in 18:38 just a week ago.

Gavin, my paces are slower and I run sub 17:20. You should expect a huge 5K PR.

Before I started Hadd training, I had never run a step in my life and weighed 274 pounds at 5' 7 1/2". I did a 5K race as a fitness test and managed a 43:58, suffering the whole last 3.07 miles. After three years of Hadd training I dropped my 5K time to 25:54 and my weight to 188. I am telling you skeptics, the shit works.

If you have a hard time gauging your improvement, make sure you do the 2400M tests. This will tell you instantly if you have improved or not. Do this once every six weeks. Also, HADD suggested doing a race every once in a while to mix things up (in his earlier posts before the monster thread).

It personally took me six weeks to start seeing improvement. Once I started improving, my fitness improved by leaps and bounds. I started training last September. Took one month off for the birth of my Daughter in Nov. In March I ran a 10K. During the Sep-Mar time span, I ran only ONE (that is not a mistake) only ONE mile faster than 6:00 (in one the 2400M tests). The bulk of my training was at 8:00 pace - what I felt was excruciatingly slow (I ran in college and was used to running 6:15 for my long, slow runs). I did 12 mile MP runs at 6:45. I did the occasional hill run and a grand total of 2 "tempo" like runs. Both were 4 milers. One at 6:25 pace, the other at 6:10 pace.

So what did I run for the 10K? I was hoping for sub 37. 36 minutes would be a stretch. What did I run? I ended up running 35:04. I was shocked that my first mile in 5:40 felt so comfortable. I cruised the rest of the way and felt strong throughout. Several weeks later I ran 16:34 for a 5K. Again, I ran a total of only ONE mile faster than 6:00 during this 7 month time span.

That was proof to me that this works. I run long and slow with a weekly MP run.

Heard that Hadd was Knocked off the bike recently.

Broke a rib.

If this is true,best wishes for a quick recovery.