Does a knowledgeable coach tell his kids to "go out hard?"

Depends on the context. Are we talking about every race? Once per season?

My coach used to have us go out hard every once in a while. I wouldn't make it a regular habit, but it was good to push the boundaries a few times per year.

good on occasion wrote:

Depends on the context. Are we talking about every race? Once per season?

My coach used to have us go out hard every once in a while. I wouldn't make it a regular habit, but it was good to push the boundaries a few times per year.

I agree and I do not think I did a good enough job of getting my kids to do that because I am so for them running "even pace."

There is an old saying-you don't know what you don't know. Some kids do hold back. Perhaps an old sage could tell a story about that?

WOW, DEAD THREAD. YET YOU HEAR OF KIDS AND COACHES SAYING

"I AM GOING TO GO OUT HARD, OR WE NEED TO GO OUT HARD IN THE STATE MEET," ALL THE TIME!

Does no one have the guts to either agree with me or argue against! Is my post so good that I said it all?

WOW and WOW have a COW!!!

When I coached I had to convince my athletes to *not* go out hard because they were told that's what they were supposed to. It was internalized in them, like all of them. I had girls going out @ 70-73 for the first lap in the 2-mile when they could only run 11:30. Everyone on the team was doing it in every race. Really annoying.

To be fair, in some races it really doesn't matter. I had a guy in the 800 literally try every single combination of splits to break 2. He went:

63 - 57

62 - 58

61 - 59

60 - 60

59 - 61

58 - 62

57 - 63

Then he ran 1:59 5 weeks in a row.

I know I would have run much better in High School and early college if I learned to go out easier (especially in 5k). That had more to do with my asthma really shutting down my aerobic system after going out too hard in the first mile than anything else though.

YEAH! YEAH!! GO OUT HARD!!

This is such great advice for kids, juniors, college and pros. BTW "hard" means "very close to your 400m max." See, look what might happen when you GO OUT REALLY HARD! WR!! But, you can't win, if you DON'T PLAY!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOS3RQU92Z4

Context matters. At the State meet here in PA (for the Girls large school race), if you don't go out hard, sub-6, you aren't medalling. Even though the last medal typically goes to someone running around 6:12 pace, if that first mile isn't sub 5:55 (top end most years), you aren't medaling. Highest finish of someone going out 6 or slower was 36th place, and that's only once in the last 5 years. Typical high finish is 68th for those runners who try to go even or even not FAST but quick.

Regular meet, you can experiment with going out fast, provided you and the athlete(s) have talked about what's expected. My top girl has gone out fast to simulate the state meet, only run tempo pace the next mile and then see how she can finish.

Of course kids are going to blow up if hard is equated to all-out sprint, but the flip side is, we've all seen kids come steaming home the last 100m or so because they never pushed earlier in the race.

Depends on the race. Does it get really narrow at some point? Is the 1st mile really flat and the next two hilly? Is your team competitive? I mean if you are in the hunt for a championship then you need to actually get out and race.

Look at the Japanese. Kings and queens of the even splits. Not so good at the actually race part

Nothing trains the cardiovascular system and your mental toughness like having to dig yourself out of a hell hole of pain from going out too fast. At the high school level this is a good practice.

Depends on what the understanding of "hard" is. If you have a kid who is constantly scared of dying in a race or doesn't know their potential, you may encourage him or her to be a bit more aggressive in the beginning of a race to get them in a better position. It doesn't necessarily have to mean go out in an all out sprint.

I disagree strongly to what "PAC," "another navy fan," and "M8," have to say. But your remarks are good enough to go into Running Times should that magazine start up again! The thing that should be really convincing to people is that you are talking mostly about the race that you can go out hard in and get away with it...the 800.

Go out hard for how long?

You have 7-10 seconds of free anaerobic alactic energy stored in your muscles that’s a "use it, or lose it" reserve. I always coach my runners to blast the first 7-ish seconds of every race - before settling into typical race pace - to take advantage of those stores and to clear themselves of many of their competitors. This is especially helpful in a XC invitational with a large competitive field where you could otherwise get boxed in.

You are more likely to get away with this in an 800 than in a longer distance. The longer the distance the more you must run smart. It's also true that you can make more mistakes the longer the distance.

I once saw a kid win a state meet by running 55-65 in the 800. He had about a 70 yard lead at one point by the end of the first lap. But you can probably imagine how they pulled up on him by the end!

But it's pretty much suicide to do that kind of thing at the Olympics...David Rudisha not withstanding. To do that kind of thing in any race you HAD BETTER be the best runner by a good amount to pull it off. There was a race where the rabbit got away---Tom Byers in a mile race. But that was not the Olympics. It is true that we cannot all sit on the pace and wait to kick. That is not in everyone's best interest!!!

I wonder if there will be anything new under-the-sun coming regarding race strategy! Race strategy is possibly the hardest thing for a coach to teach. But if your kid is by far the best in a race, it gets much more simple doesn't it?

This is the kind of "Alph-Male," talk that I hear often. Thank you for saying it.

This is extremely limited thinking for a 5K and even for a 3200.

We see lots of kids winning 8 straight meets during the regular season. Then at the state meet everyone thinks and says they have choked because they went out too hard and blew up. But it isn't that people go out harder at the state meet. It's just that you have more good runners than in regular season meets. You have the best of the best there.

There are of course a few newbies that go out too hard at state. But here is where the coaching comes in---you must teach them that many will come back to them if they are patient early. That does not mean that you do not run with the people you should run with...but you can keep them at a distance and gradually pull them back in. (I'm not sure you understand this principle as the entire field might be running the race wrong. In a 5K a smart kid can come back with the right plan but it's a hard sell.)

But it's hard for coaches to teach that, especially if the girl or boy has been blowing out the field every race. I wish I had the secret to teaching that and that is the purpose of asking the question.

(Getting faster times during the regular season is best done by going out hard if you do not care about winning. But what happens to the kid's mind if you do that every race and his times or placements do not improve? You better be a great coach if you want to pull that off. You do not beat people who are better than you by trying to insert a quick 400 meters at an early phase in the race!)

It is also easy to get kids to go out hard. That is a natural inclination for most kids. It's also foolish and you will lose many good runners that way.

For some kids running a 5:55 mile is not going out hard. It's going out at the pace they should be running. It's not hard for them! In addition what if the first mile is downhill? Fast is relative to who is running. Above all I want my kids to run smart. One can be in incredible shape and ruin their race in the first 100 meters. I could tell you some stories about that one!!!

It depends wrote:

Depends on what the understanding of "hard" is. If you have a kid who is constantly scared of dying in a race or doesn't know their potential, you may encourage him or her to be a bit more aggressive in the beginning of a race to get them in a better position. It doesn't necessarily have to mean go out in an all out sprint.

Scientists say that one can run hard for 5 seconds and it will not effect one's aerobic performance because it is "alactic." However if I know I am not the best runner in the race this might put me in first place! Is it smart to do that. I say no.

I think you are right in encouraging the rare kid who won't go out hard to start a little faster. Also I have found that having someone on the varsity "go out hard," often leads to a better race for us if our kids key off him! It gives them someone to pass and they enjoy that.

But that is a thing about this. We want them to know how to race and not to have to rely on a pacer.

Coach X wrote:

Go out hard for how long?

You have 7-10 seconds of free anaerobic alactic energy stored in your muscles that’s a "use it, or lose it" reserve. I always coach my runners to blast the first 7-ish seconds of every race - before settling into typical race pace - to take advantage of those stores and to clear themselves of many of their competitors. This is especially helpful in a XC invitational with a large competitive field where you could otherwise get boxed in.

If you are going to have them race that way, you had better train that way. I think that alactic energy cycle is closer to 5 seconds. But even with that in mind do I really want my kids who will finish 15th out of 30 to be in first place at the start? That guarantees they will be passed by at minimum 14 kids. It's mind blowing to have 3 and 4 kids at a time pass you! I would much rather pass than be passed.

Why can't your kids pass other kids gradually throughout the race? (Of course the best runner might not want to do that!) This such a tough sell.

Every kid wants to be Steve Prefontaine and be the powerful front runner.

I never had a race where I started too slow. I had hundreds where I started too fast!

It seems to be a belief thing whether you want your team to go out hard, run even pace, or sit and kick. Everyone thinks they know what the right way to race is. We are all geniuses.

No, it isn't Alpha-male talk. For PA, I'm using data to inform my athletes of what it will take to medal. You need to be aware of what's going to happen to be prepared for it. As you stated, what if the course funnels, or is downhill, etc. Those are reasons to put yourself in a "good position" even if it's a bit fast because the mental factor of being far behind the competition could weigh on a runner and then they are out of contention regardless.

You state, "as the entire field might be running the race wrong". If everyone is running fast and then settling in for a punishing second mile, and they do it every year, that's not the wrong race, that's the race, PERIOD.

Your last paragraph actually agreed with everything that I wrote in the previous reply.

Of course we practiced this. (Have you never done flys?)

You may choose to ignore this advantage, but that means you will underperform relative to my kids.

Going out the first lap of 1500/1600/one mile race less than four seconds slower than one's 400m PB is not wise. I did so a few times when I was 14 years old, but never past the age of 14. We don't see elite 1500m athletes going out in 49 or 50 seconds for the first 400m of a 1500m race, why should we think it's smart to have young teenagers go out less than four seconds slower than their 400m PB in a 1600m race?