Why do you think Snell never even got close to breaking Herb Elliott's 1500m world record of 3:35.6?
Snell's 1500m PB is 3:37.6 and he broke the WR for the 800m, 880 yards, 1000m and mile.
He was able to break Elliott's mile record but was not able to get within a second of the 1500m WR.
Was Elliott's WR so far ahead of its time?
His seasons were entirely centred around peaking and running his best at the championships
Camilla Martin wrote:
Why do you think Snell never even got close to breaking Herb Elliott's 1500m world record of 3:35.6?
Snell's 1500m PB is 3:37.6 and he broke the WR for the 800m, 880 yards, 1000m and mile.
He was able to break Elliott's mile record but was not able to get within a second of the 1500m WR.
Was Elliott's WR so far ahead of its time?
Maybe he was never really set up for a 1500m record break attempt with very good pacemakers and so on?
Shorters stache wrote:
His seasons were entirely centred around peaking and running his best at the championships
Think you are right there! :)
Outside of the 1964 Olympics all his big races at the distance were over a mile. His epic crushing of Beatty and the rest of the LATC in 1963 was over a mile, races against Ryun, Grelle etc in the US in 1965 were over a mile. Until 1970 races in the Commonwealth Games were in the imperial distances.
A Snell admirer wrote:
Shorters stache wrote:His seasons were entirely centred around peaking and running his best at the championships
Think you are right there! :)
Elliott was in the same time zone, the same seasons, and the same travel restrictions.
Snell had rarely or never raced a 1500 before the 1964 Olympics. In his book he remarked on how nice it felt in Tokyo to just get settled down from the start of a 1500 and find there were only three laps to go.
As pointed out above the Commonwealth Games during Snell's time were raced at the imperial distances. (Tokyo was the only major championship in which he raced 1500.) Snell was possibly in shape to give the 1500 record a go on several occasions when he ended up racing a mile instead.
And that "racing" was key for him. In contrast to Elliott's sustained power Snell relied on his sprint finish to win championships. Snell's 1500 in Tokyo also followed his rounds (and win) in the 800 and that meant that he'd not be well served by a potential-WR pace in the 1500 final.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK0woLEtQQA&t=12s
Watch Elliott's Rome race again. He crushed the field from 800m to 1400m and then was buyin' it big-time on the homestraight. If anyone had stayed close enough to him (but no one could do that in 1960) to muster a sprint then Elliott would have been vulnerable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd2ISNCxFoM
But yeah--Herb's 3:36.0 and then his Rome 3:35.6 were just too far ahead of all competition available at that time. Snell had had a bad experience in his second WR mile (a strict pace run and not a real race) and probably wanted no part of another specific record attempt. And for Peter to beat Herb's 1500 time a targeted WR attempt would have been necessary.
Snell raced a mile against Elliott in Dublin shortly after the 1960 Olympics, but failed to break 4. It was the only time Gordon Pirie broke the 4 minute barrier right at the end of his career.
http://rhodesiansportprofiles.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/terence-allman-sullivan.html
treadmiler wrote:
Snell raced a mile against Elliott in Dublin shortly after the 1960 Olympics, but failed to break 4. It was the only time Gordon Pirie broke the 4 minute barrier right at the end of his career.
Interesting. Thanks.
Camilla Martin wrote:
Why do you think Snell never even got close to breaking Herb Elliott's 1500m world record of 3:35.6?
Snell's 1500m PB is 3:37.6 and he broke the WR for the 800m, 880 yards, 1000m and mile.
He was able to break Elliott's mile record but was not able to get within a second of the 1500m WR.
Was Elliott's WR so far ahead of its time?
Ellliot : 3:35.6/3:54.5 -> 3:35 is about 3:52.8
Snell : 3:37.6/3:54.1 -> 3:37.6-> 3:54.9
I.e. the 1500m record was a heck of a lot better than Snells mile PR. Not surprising he didn't come close. Also notice how poor Snells endurance was when you look at his 800m time. Needed more aerobic work:)
And you also have to remember back then neither of those guys had anywhere near the number of targeted WR attempts with good pacemaking that modern guys get.
afsdasfadsfdassdsadfasd wrote:
Camilla Martin wrote:Why do you think Snell never even got close to breaking Herb Elliott's 1500m world record of 3:35.6?
Snell's 1500m PB is 3:37.6 and he broke the WR for the 800m, 880 yards, 1000m and mile.
He was able to break Elliott's mile record but was not able to get within a second of the 1500m WR.
Was Elliott's WR so far ahead of its time?
Ellliot : 3:35.6/3:54.5 -> 3:35 is about 3:52.8
Snell : 3:37.6/3:54.1 -> 3:37.6-> 3:54.9
I.e. the 1500m record was a heck of a lot better than Snells mile PR. Not surprising he didn't come close. Also notice how poor Snells endurance was when you look at his 800m time. Needed more aerobic work:)
And you also have to remember back then neither of those guys had anywhere near the number of targeted WR attempts with good pacemaking that modern guys get.
Snell was only really ever in good 1500m/mile shape for the 1964 Olympics when during his base he average 100 mpw for months on end. He didn’t even need to try to win the 1500m in Tokyo. John Walker wrote in his book that he went to see Snell in the mid 1970s in Texas and he looked through his training log books and he found blank days and he asked Snell what he did that day, to which Snell replied that Arthur wanted him to do distance work and, "Ah! I couldn't be bothered." Looking at the speed work Snell did it was likely that he could have run sub 1:44 in the pre-synthetic track days but he was never pushed. He also smoked a pipe in 1964, which is quite unbelievable.
Then the work for Rome began: “On 26th December I stopped smoking and started serious training at Portsea.†(Elliott, p.130)
treadmiler wrote:
Snell raced a mile against Elliott in Dublin shortly after the 1960 Olympics, but failed to break 4. It was the only time Gordon Pirie broke the 4 minute barrier right at the end of his career.
http://rhodesiansportprofiles.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/terence-allman-sullivan.html
Was this the only time Snell raced Elliott?
Good post
Camilla Martin wrote:
treadmiler wrote:Snell raced a mile against Elliott in Dublin shortly after the 1960 Olympics, but failed to break 4. It was the only time Gordon Pirie broke the 4 minute barrier right at the end of his career.
http://rhodesiansportprofiles.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/terence-allman-sullivan.htmlWas this the only time Snell raced Elliott?
I personally don't believe this link. The only time the two raced was over 800m in Australia in 1958/59, Snell won. They have both said it would have been a great great race if they met over a mile. My personal view is that Elliott looked the better miler, light and smoother but in purely middle-distance terms Snell with Coe is one of the 2 best around middle-distance runners of all time.
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
Camilla Martin wrote:Was this the only time Snell raced Elliott?
I personally don't believe this link. The only time the two raced was over 800m in Australia in 1958/59, Snell won. They have both said it would have been a great great race if they met over a mile. My personal view is that Elliott looked the better miler, light and smoother but in purely middle-distance terms Snell with Coe is one of the 2 best around middle-distance runners of all time.
In terms of a mile race, would you class Elliott as a front runner and Snell as finishing kicker?
I've seen more of Snell's races and he did have a tremendous finishing kick.
If both were level with 150m to go, who would win?!
Herb Elliott was far ahead of everyone at 1500m for that time, and especially considering the terrible tracks.
Tyrrell Hatton wrote:
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:I personally don't believe this link. The only time the two raced was over 800m in Australia in 1958/59, Snell won. They have both said it would have been a great great race if they met over a mile. My personal view is that Elliott looked the better miler, light and smoother but in purely middle-distance terms Snell with Coe is one of the 2 best around middle-distance runners of all time.
In terms of a mile race, would you class Elliott as a front runner and Snell as finishing kicker?
I've seen more of Snell's races and he did have a tremendous finishing kick.
If both were level with 150m to go, who would win?!
Well Snell of course? Elliott would have to make sure the pace on the 2nd & 3rd laps were very fast because you are correct, he would have been in trouble.
Snell v. Elliott over 1500m:
paced trial: Elliott 9/10
head-to-head: Snell 9/10
Gryptic wrote:
head-to-head: Snell 9/10
You have no clue about Elliott.