Jack Daniels - Red Plan ... Always Sore Now

RecoveryingUltraRunner wrote:

Looking for some perspective from the group after using Jack Daniels Red Plan for the past several months. I've noticed I'm basically always sore and have some sort of niggle in my legs (shin, knee, foot, etc.) now. I'm seeing improvement but frustrated since previously I was running 70-80 mpw (all easy) vs the 25-30 mpw using the JD plan.

Is this just the fact of life when actually "training" vs doing long slow distance training for ultras? Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Recovering Ultra Runner

It just may be your body not used to certain paces (which means certain impact forces). I mean, depending where you are, the first two phases of the training only have easy pace running and tempo running.

Also, Daniels has a range of paces that are considered "easy". However, if you are used to doing ultras, your prior easy pace may be slower that what Daniels cites as an easy pace. That can be an additional stress on your body.

You're basically training your body and muscles in a way that they haven't been trained in awhile. It needs to adjust.

Thanks, I appreciate the response. You're right its just the two tempo runs per week in terms of quality. Certainly on the slower end of the spectrum (VDOT 45) having never developed the speed aspect of my running. I'll be sure to really take it easy on my E runs. Thanks again.

The " Red" part of the plan stands for chronic inflammation.

lol. At least he didn't choose the Black Plan.

Athlete Rosacea wrote:

The " Red" part of the plan stands for chronic inflammation.

RecoveryingUltraRunner wrote:

Looking for some perspective from the group after using Jack Daniels Red Plan for the past several months. I've noticed I'm basically always sore and have some sort of niggle in my legs (shin, knee, foot, etc.) now. I'm seeing improvement but frustrated since previously I was running 70-80 mpw (all easy) vs the 25-30 mpw using the JD plan.

Is this just the fact of life when actually "training" vs doing long slow distance training for ultras? Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Recovering Ultra Runner

The best way to train for Ultras is to train like a marathoner.

Add at least a minute to the easy pace.

Yes wrote:

Add at least a minute to the easy pace.

No. You have to run your exact best distance pace.

I've heard that and I could see the benefits over the LSD I had been doing. I got a couple kids under two now, so I'm shifting my focus to shorter stuff (< HM) and trying to develop the speed I never took the time to do before jumping into ultras.

I figure those longer races will always be there after my kids are a little older. I'll probably be much better off spending this time doing the JD style training for a few years.

Yes wrote:

Add at least a minute to the easy pace.

In the Red Plan, the non-quality days are just 30 min @ E + strides, does running at say an E 9:00 vs 10:00 add that much incremental stress?

Probably overtraining.

These are formulaic one size fits all training schedules which ensure suboptimal results.

Why the hell would you train for an ultra? I can spot and fix the training errors if you email me your logbook.

RecoveryingUltraRunner wrote:

Yes wrote:

Add at least a minute to the easy pace.

In the Red Plan, the non-quality days are just 30 min @ E + strides, does running at say an E 9:00 vs 10:00 add that much incremental stress?

It depends on the person. I am relatively stocky for a runner. I found that even though I can do intervals and tempos all at my VDOT that equates to race performances and recover, I generally can't do the easy paces. I need to go slower to recover.

I would go by feel. If you can incremently pick it up and recover, then do so. Even if it is for the last 1/2 of the run or last 10 minutes. The extra can help.

I found Daniels instructive, but it has all the same problems that affects all training plans that come in a book: real training isn't a black and white schedule. I think one of the flaws it has is that the base period in a lot of the plans are just easy running and strides. I also disagree with the criticism of junk mileage and training in "in-between" zones. And he had a comment in there to the effect of "if you can run a 5:00 mile off of 20 mpw as well as 50 mpw, you are better off doing 20 mpw". (I get his point, but it can be misunderstood in too simplistic a fashion)

I also think two tempo runs a week are, well, odd.

That could also be the source of the problem. A little too much density of the same type of quality work.

No not again wrote:

lol. At least he didn't choose the Black Plan.

Athlete Rosacea wrote:

The " Red" part of the plan stands for chronic inflammation.

What would the brown plan be?

Yes.Also notice I said to add "at least a minute"

RecoveryingUltraRunner wrote:

Yes wrote:

Add at least a minute to the easy pace.

In the Red Plan, the non-quality days are just 30 min @ E + strides, does running at say an E 9:00 vs 10:00 add that much incremental stress?

[quote]Yes wrote:

Yes.

Also notice I said to add "at least a minute"

Sorry this a total Noob question as I didn't run in HS or college. Would the same apply to the T pace? Say the 3 x 1 mile T pace goal is 7:25. Is running each mile 5-10 seconds faster going to cause me issues? I'm not doing it intentionally just want to make sure I hit the split goal and end up going a touch faster.

Once again...yes.

It is also important (Daniels' own emphasis) that you run the workout for your *current fitness* (I would say even "on the day"), not based on your PRs or goal times.

Better to 5% undertrain than 1% overtrain.