Really slow twitch and cannot do well in HS despite loving to run??

What do you by "work your speed"? What kind of stuff are you doing?

You can develop speed to a certain extent. I coached an athlete with PRs that were a little slower than your's at the end of his frosh season and switched his training to a lot of what Scott Christianson does (not all cause it is kinda crazy). It sacrificed him in the longer stuff a little in the short term, but he ended up running 1:57, 4:22 and 9:25.

Speed takes much longer to develop so you need to be patient. If you have bad running mechanics it will not help either.

Need more speed, not speed endurance.

ie. explosive hill sprints (8-10 sec) then in a few weeks, transition to flat sprints.

Start lifting weights, particularly squats and deadlifts. The goal isn't to get big, it's to develop power. Google can help you find decent programs.

How is your running form? Logging 60+ mpw with only a 17:02 just screams long slow heel striking. What's your height and weight out of curiosity. (Are you still growing; maybe put on some muscle.)

Does your team do form and strength drills? Are you taking those seriously? How often do you do post-workout/run strides? Hills....?

FWIW you're not bad and clearly doing most everything correctly. I didn't find true speed until I was a junior. And I only "found" it by running less miles much faster generally, doing a ton of drills and hills, spending extra time on the track in spikes doing max effort short sprints/strides. It won't just happen without getting comfortable running progressively faster.

One last thought: You included 10k and HM PRs which are pointless and indicate that you race overdistance or at least have your eyes set there. You may be a "distance runner," but you're young and don't actually compete in those events so forget them for now and think of yourself as a racer of short distances who must develop speed if you want to win anything. You have your whole life to plod along in (half-) marathons after you accomplish fast times in the competitive distances you race in now.

I always strike midfoot (or at least I think I do) but spikes give me ankle problems for some reason so I usually wear flats. I am 5'10'' and 125lbs. I currently do not run hills, common workouts are: 12x400 w/ 1 min rest @1:15-20, 2 x 2 miles @5k pace w/ 5 min rest on track, and 3 min on 1 min off fartleks. Maybe I should incorporate some hill sprints? Also, I usually do not do longer distance tempos. I usually just do things like the workout I listed before, the 2x2 mile, as a tempo.

You're probably fine form-wise then. Flats are also fine. You absolutely need to run hills. Short and fast with lots of recovery like someone else posted.

Do you do any intervals between 400m and 2 miles? 800/1k? Miles? That's such a huge jump.

How hard do those 400s feel...? Because that workout is trash. Not speed work whatsoever. Is that the one your teammates crush you at? That's like your 3200 PR pace...

My mistake. The prescribed paces are SUPPOSED to be 2 mile/5k pace but even the coach sometimes makes us run a little faster. I usually don't go under 1:10 though and keep it consistently at around 1:12. I will start to do hills as I didn't actually think about that before. What would a good workout be to incorporate them? 2 mile warm up, 10 x 30 sec hills w/ 2 min recovery, 2 mile cool down??

johnny bean wrote:

My mistake. The prescribed paces are SUPPOSED to be 2 mile/5k pace but even the coach sometimes makes us run a little faster. I usually don't go under 1:10 though and keep it consistently at around 1:12. I will start to do hills as I didn't actually think about that before. What would a good workout be to incorporate them? 2 mile warm up, 10 x 30 sec hills w/ 2 min recovery, 2 mile cool down??

You need to incorporate some sprinting. Find a short, fairly steep little hill that you can sprint up in 8-10 seconds. After a good warmup, sprint up the hill. Walk down and take a few minutes until you're recovered. Don't rush the recovery.

Start with 2-3 hills, and work up to maybe 8-10. What you'll find at first is that you probably aren't strong enough to really sprint up the hill. Do this once a week until you can really blast the repeats.

At this point, you're ready to get on the track to do some sprint work there.

I logged 70+ miles a week over the summer (and still do) and I still have a difficult time going under 17 for the 5K. And I have a forefoot strike (I run in minimalist shoes).

I'm 5'9 120 lbs so I'm similar to the OP but he has better strength than me. This is a good topic so I have a couple questions:

1. Does max sprint speed really matter a lot for long distances (3200 +)?

2. Does mileage really need to be reduced in order to develop speed?

I think that the OP's problem is lack of inherited speed, which should develop if he continues what he's doing over time. He'd be a monster in the marathon though.

anemia.

I'm in the same boat, I have literally zero speed. I've found max hill reps do help though, but some of us are just naturally slow twitch, and love distance work too much. Like above posters mentioned, 8-10s hill sprints, all out, 6-10 reps, once a week. I felt so much easier running faster paces after this, but still have a ways to go (my 400 PR is near identical to yours).

So you are the best runner in competition but not in practice? Your coach should be okay with that if you truly are giving it your all.

No I do not think a coach's job is to question a person's effort unless it is warranted.

It might be that you are going to better at the longer distances.

I think once you mature more, you'll see your sprint times get better...I've done xc/track all 4 years and I think going to practice everyday helps but physical maturity as well. Freshman year I ran a 400 in about 63-64 im guessing? And the next year I ran a 58, then I ran a 57 junior year and senior year I ran a 51. Flying 30m sprints twice a week did me good in my opinion. Explosive hill sprints are good as well as they work strength/form and get your fast twitch muscles moving. Another thing is form, sprinting requires more attention towards form...so having good core strength to remain mostly upright with your arms moving is key. Strides after an easy run are good too. I was lazy about doing those but before workouts do a few just to get the legs moving. If you really want to go beyond, try plyometrics. I did them during the winter phase for track but they help fast twitch muscle recruitment for sure.

Jeremy R wrote:

Need more speed, not speed endurance.

ie. explosive hill sprints (8-10 sec) then in a few weeks, transition to flat sprints.

Bingo! You need raw speed. These are super short things that recruit the maximum muscle. You keep them super short so they aren't taxing in even an anaerobic way. Focus on long recovery between them so that you can do them with good form and strength. Nothing wrong with doing a hard 8 second hill sprint and waiting a minute or two to do another one. On the flat you probably don't need to sprint for any more than 60 meters if you can't find a small hill anywhere. Do this once a week and work up in repetitions. You can probably do this on your own, but it is going to take a few weeks to go from just a few reps (2 or 3 when you start) to something like 10 reps. Don't rush it and remember recovery is key so that you're doing them with the best form that will lead to the best adaptations.

[quote]doot doot wrote:

You're probably fine form-wise then. [quote]

So the same time with forefoot striking changes things up that much in your book?

You are much better than a guy who joined my team in the 11th grade. He ended up running 4:40 and 10:00. Don't think he ever broke 60 in the 400 nor 2:10 in the 800. Hills and lunges

1. If you're running 60+ mpw but only managing ~5:00 / 10:30 / 17:00 and speed is the only missing element, then improving sprint speed is important. Max speed? I dunno. When does your body actually learn to exceed 5:00 pace? I don't think 400 repeats @ 70-72 are gonna make running 9:20 a reality... Maybe I'm wrong. I wasn't an aerobic beast. But I beat most of the ones I knew off half their mileage because we weren't racing 10k+

2. No it doesn't. This is anecdotal. I could not grind out that mileage at that time regardless of pace let alone get quality workouts and recovery. I personally had to drop mileage. If I could have run 70mpw and done the extra speed work I would have obviously been even better.

I never met a guy who cracked 4:20 / 9:20 who didn't have some measure of speed.

Lifting weights (for power) and strides/sprints will help your speed as a distance runner. It will also lead to faster times due to increased efficiency and running economy. You're welcome.