Record without Pacers

This is what pisses me off about marathon "records" - the use of pacers. No pacers = awesome.

What about watches that give pace like garmin? Are those okay?

No pacers- slow runners like Rupp and slow mo ruining the sport. Pacers are meant not only to pull the runners, but to pull the race and force a fast time incase you got some slowmo/slowtupp/slowsimpson runners who are counting on a slow disgusting tactical boring yellowish sit and kick races

Bayi 1500 gun to tape. Anyone else ran faster since?

Paul Chelimo 13:08. Anyone else run a faster 5K wire to wire?

David Rudisha of course

They should scrap the rule that disallows pacers to finish the race. That'll stop some of the tactical tedium. Bring back the fun of watching Tom Byers.

As for unpaced records, Rudisha obviously, and Ayana - can't remember if she was paced at the start or not.

LoneStarXC wrote:

What about watches that give pace like garmin? Are those okay?

I'd be ok with this. Plus there's clocks on the course, so some mental math will tell you your pace.

You can get rid of overt pacing paid for by organizers, but pacing would then just go under the table. Runners would get paid by agents, sponsors or other runner to go out hard for someone else. Or just do it for friendship or because they are part of the same training group, etc.

Then how would you know that the race was paced as opposed to someone just trying to go out hard and front run? Would you have pacing police who would investigate runners? Would the IAAF/USATF get to judge whether to award a WR/AR based on suspicions that someone in the race was pacing?

If you banned paced records, the cure would be worse than the disease.

argv wrote:

They should scrap the rule that disallows pacers to finish the race. That'll stop some of the tactical tedium. Bring back the fun of watching Tom Byers.

As for unpaced records, Rudisha obviously, and Ayana - can't remember if she was paced at the start or not.

There is no rule that disallows pacers to finish.

Quite the contrary. Pacers have to be officially entered as a competitor, meaning they can finish and place.

There is no way to disallow pacers from a record attempt.

They tried that in the past and you just got unofficial pacers that would pretend to be racing.

How could you possibly write an enforceable rule to prohibit pacers?

We can talk about the fastest wire to wire races.

But does that mean they have to be leading after 100m? 200m? What is the cutoff?

And they can never be passed and then pass someone back?

Dave Moorcroft's 13:00.41in 1982. He took the lead almost immediately.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOvhTQM4TqAhttp://www.racingpast.ca/john_contents.php?id=283

snow blow wrote:

Paul Chelimo 13:08. Anyone else run a faster 5K wire to wire?

If people just went for fast times there wouldn't be a need for pacemakers. Sadly, you have athletes like Mo Farah who just want a slow race, so they make it slow. You hwve pacemakers to avoid this. If humans weren't selfish d*ckwads, they wouldn't be neccesary, but humans are selfish d*ckwads. They do help record attempts though.

wow idiots... wrote:

If people just went for fast times there wouldn't be a need for pacemakers. Sadly, you have athletes like Mo Farah who just want a slow race, so they make it slow. You hwve pacemakers to avoid this. If humans weren't selfish d*ckwads, they wouldn't be neccesary, but humans are selfish d*ckwads. They do help record attempts though.

It's a race. Trying to win a race is not being a selfish d*ckwad -- it's the whole point of racing. Nobody, including Mo Farah, is obligated to sacrifice their chance to win by being a rabbit for their competitors. That's why you have to pay rabbits - because they are sacrificing their chance for a win.

There's something admirable about taking races out hard when you're not the fastest person in the race, but it's also foolish if you're trying to get the best place in a race. For example, I like watching Laura Muir race, but she has probably sacrificed chances at a medal by being a free rabbit in championship races.

I had another thought after I started this thread, call it an incentive to go faster and not need pacers. Say your 3000 or 5000's at Diamond League meets pay a certain amount for each place, that's fine and good, but how about a time standard (Iaaf score proportion) to get the additional money if that is hit. If the Mens 5 is say 13:05 and you win with a 12:59 your time standard pays the same as a win 2 x XX = $$$$ If you're slower that 13:05, money for place, but nothing additional for time. My 2 and 4 cents.

Pacers S**k wrote:

I had another thought after I started this thread, call it an incentive to go faster and not need pacers. Say your 3000 or 5000's at Diamond League meets pay a certain amount for each place, that's fine and good, but how about a time standard (Iaaf score proportion) to get the additional money if that is hit. If the Mens 5 is say 13:05 and you win with a 12:59 your time standard pays the same as a win 2 x XX = $$$$ If you're slower that 13:05, money for place, but nothing additional for time. My 2 and 4 cents.

Something else to do is to offer "primes" for being in 1st at some intermediate distance. They do this for the 5th Avenue Mile. They could do it in Diamond League or marathons also.

That way you give some runners who might not be able to win the whole thing an incentive to take earlier parts of the race out harder so that not everyone in the race has an identical incentive to force someone else to lead. Assuming no one blabs about planning to run for the prime, in effect you get pacers but since no one know who the pacers are the top runners are more likely to cover the pacers and also go out hard.

Ackley wrote:

Dave Moorcroft's 13:00.41in 1982. He took the lead almost immediately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOvhTQM4TqAhttp://www.racingpast.ca/john_contents.php?id=283

snow blow wrote:

Paul Chelimo 13:08. Anyone else run a faster 5K wire to wire?

While the above were excellent performances. I think that you will find that the 5000m in Paris 2003 was led by Bekele until the last lap, 12:52 for Kipchoge. The 2006 Commonwealth Games 5000m had no pacers and Choge ran 12:56 with the Big Rig doing 12:58.