Success with Daniels?

Interesting post; lots of really useful info.

I've had several 'false starts' with marathon training over the past two years, and am once again considering a Daniels approach. The choice is really whether to use 2Q 56-70 or Plan A as the basis.

One major difference which I havent seen discussed is the base structure of where the interval work falls within the two respective plans: 2Q has an 'I' session (with an extended warm up, and often including some 'R') roughly every 3rd week throughout the whole plan. Plan A on the other hand is more of a phased approach, with 6 interval weeks blocked together at the start.

Do the knowledgable posters here have an opinion on the best approach? Does it matter?

My inclination is slightly towards the 2Q approach, as it doesnt leave faster paces 'untrained' for any significant length of time. But does that fact make it less marathon specific?

Interested to hear thoughts

Smoove wrote:

Nah, I was alluding to my need to stop because of calf cramping. In each of my last three marathons, my weakness has been my second rate calves, which caused me to stop and stretch repeatedly.

“Smoove was a Central Florida lawyer with second-rate calves and a liking for Jack Daniels.”

That’s the main thing I wanted to post, but just to add slightly to the discussion, I’ll agree that there are aren’t any clearly defined cues I’ve found with Daniels M pace, unlike T and I, which have noticeable breathing changes. I do think of M runs as having a certain fairly distinct feel/flavor, as what I could do 8-10 miles at to the point of feeling like I put in a strong effort but without feeling beat. Long tempos that happened to be around M pace (if I had been using a VDOT table) were a staple for me going back to HS, so that’s fairly ingrained. (Not sure I could explain why, but I think they helped.) So if I tell myself I’m doing an M pace run, I reach for that feel and get somewhere around my current marathon pace. I’d add I haven’t found any distinct cues for the CV/10k pace that’s trendy, but it does have a certain flavor to it.

Anybody got a link to this Plan A of Daniels. i have version 3 of the book and its not in it so would be handy if its available anywhere online without having to get another copy.

how does daniels plans compare to pfitzinger on mileage around 55 aiming for sub 3?

tommyrun wrote:

What sort of shape would you need to be in before starting daniels 2q marathon plan aiming for sub3.

Ideally what is the minimum amount of mileage and number of training days to give myself and realistic chance of achieving?

ive done 1.22 in half marathon when averaging 45 miles a week in the 2 months before it. but usually only manage about 25 miles a week on average throughout the year.

Would 50-55 miles a week and for what period of time give me a shot at sub 3?

so hard get time for the mileage with family and work to prioritise.

In terms of workouts and mileage, I would say the 56-70mpw 2Q plan would be the minimum I'd personally feel as sufficient. The 41-55mpw plan workouts are not far away; but I still feel they fall slightly short. IIRC the 56-70 plan works out as averaging around 62mpw - in terms of overall mileage, that should be enough.

I would say that as long as you were comfortable with several weeks at 60mpw before starting the plan, you should be ok. Some may think its necessary to be used to running peak mileage (in this case 70mpw) before starting - but I think thats a little excessive. As long as the average mileage of 62 isnt going to take you far in to new territory then you should be ok.

I myself am in a similar position - im coming off a winter of 8 weeks averaging 45mpw. Last summer (2018) was 50mpw for around 10 weeks, with a drop to 30ish for the weeks in between (after getting destoryed in my October marathon.

My aim is now to build marathon fitness; and im trying to decide on the most sensible method. I feel the 56-70 plan is the right one for me, but I dont yet feel in a position to start...

As a result; what Im planning on doing is working through the 41-55 plan, but NOT using it to train for a marathon at the end of the cycle. Instead, following the 41-55 2Q plan will serve two goals:

1. Improve overall fitness to a new high for racing 10k's and Half Marathons between March and May

2. Prepare myself for the 56-70 2Q plan which I plan to begin in early June, with the goal of an October marathon

The above should be a prudent approach, as it will allow me siginificant time to build up mpw and workout mileage, and to get used to the 2Q structure of two 'big' workouts per week (no more interval sessions being done in 50mins including warm up and cool down!).

I have raced two marathons to date in Oct-17 and Oct-18 respectively; 2:59 off a Pfitz plan averaging 60mpw for around 12 weeks prior, and 3:10 off around 50mpw for 10 or so weeks prior.

The second of these efforts was off insufficient long runs. I was generally running 13ish mile long run each week, added in one 17, one 19 and one 20; and tried to blag it.... needless to say it didnt work - I fell to pieces at 20 miles and had to waddle most of the last 6. In all honesty it set my running back 2-3 months, so if you are not prepared - just dont risk it!

So in light of the above, im taking a show build up this time. 38 weeks ish, with 41-55 plan and 56-70 plan basically back to back. I will adjust for racing; and will likely ignore the mileage percentages on the 41-55 plan, and instead focus on a slow build up so that im comfortable at 60mpw by the time I hit 56-70 plan in June (and the 'proper' marathon training).

Of course if all goes well, there is nothing to stop me jumping in a marathon sooner than October, but the above approach should be low risk and allow me to race well 10k-HM in between.

I feel like I've underachieved at the marathon to date, as my half PB is 1:19 (March 2017).

Hopefully that offers some food for thought? I suppose a lot may depend on when you are planning to run the marathon; but if that can be flexible Id certainly suggest a longer build up to get your mileage to the right level, rather than trying to 'cram in' a training plan now that you might not be quite ready for.

I do feel 1:22 HM is enough for a sub 3 though - provided mileage and workouts are at a good level. Ive seen quite a lot of people run sub 3 off a 1:25 for example (which is again why i feel im underachieving slightly)

jammydodger wrote:

Also do you guys work much off heart rate when training to ensure doing easy work easy enough and T work at the correct 85-90% HR zone?

I'm doing 2Q by HR. AMA.

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

jammydodger wrote:

Also do you guys work much off heart rate when training to ensure doing easy work easy enough and T work at the correct 85-90% HR zone?

I'm doing 2Q by HR. AMA.

e.g.

1)

2)

3) Bingo.

You will want a good base before starting the plan and be near peak mileage. These are big workouts and you might find it difficult to increase your mileage after starting the workouts. Not impossible, but difficult. Note that I did I did 2 x 2Q in 2018 at the age of 50. That is my point of reference, so if you are younger you might find it easier to recover and increase mileage after starting the plan. Also, I don't think that the 41-55 plan falls short in terms of workouts but I do think more weekly mileage would help someone in the sub3 range.

This approach strikes me as odd. Why use a marathon plan that has a peaking and tapering aspect to it for racing 10ks and HMs? Why not build up your base mileage and then test drive the 2Q workouts for your spring training keeping these Q run test drives at a relatively consistent mileage. Then for the fall do the 18 week 2Q plan for your goal marathon.

I would not characterize this as a slow build up since there is no build up in either plan and you start with some big workouts.

It does look like you have under-performed your potential. I would say that the 56-70 2Q should be a good fit. You could also use the 41-55 2Q but use 70 mpw as your reference for the prescribed weekly totals. Good luck and I hope you find success in whatever route you choose.

intereting comments on your previous experience.

certainly if you can run a 1.19 half then you are capable of 2.50 marathon if you get in the miles.

You mentioned you used pfitzinger and broke 3 hours also. how did that pman compare to daniels 2q?

The lower mileage daniels 2q looks challenging but doable. the 55-70 2q plan looks like it could break a runner unless he is very comfortable at that sort of weekly mileage.

some swear by pfitzinger and others by daniels. interested to hear how you found both plans on the body?

thanks make me get fast.

if i used the 41-55 plan and just extended some of the workouts slightly by a few easy miles would that be a good option.

cant see me getting near 70 miles. too much time. i just dont have the available hours with toddler, baby, wife and work to fit in.

55 miles would be prob the absolutely furthest i could stretch from a time availability point of view.

worth giving it a go or a waste of time aiming for sub 3 off 55 miles peak?

With JS you are guaranteed to run sub 3 on as much as 55 mpw. www.coachjs.se

how is this possible? really 55 miles a week = guaranteed sub 3?

Gerry5 wrote:

how is this possible? really 55 miles a week = guaranteed sub 3?

So far JS has never failed with his system and coached runners. He is legit!

His system is built on the three main factors for the result and enough effort + enough recovery= supercompensation.

A lot of readers here at LRC believes he is just another Troll , but more and more of them realize he has something great going on.

OMG..is this "the wizard". is he that much better than mcmillan as everybody is saying?

Yeaah! Listen to the real pro.