Success with Daniels?

seeker of marathon wisdom wrote:

5E + 6M + 1T + 5M + 1T + 1M + 1E

oh man. if I was faced with this workout at the beginning of an 18 week block I would make it about a week before bailing and doing my own thing. I don't think I could complete this on untapered legs.

Glad I found this tread on a Google search. I'm a few weeks into the 56-70 2Q plan for Chicago and I'm really feeling it. 11 miles of marathon pace 16 weeks out and 8 miles of tempo 14 weeks out seem crazy to me. I've attempted and made it through but taking a loooong time to recover. Some workouts I've had to scrap. Good to know others struggle with the same issues.

Smoove wrote:

My sense is that Pfitz and Daniels generally apply the same ideas, so I think this is a pretty good idea for you in that you'll be applying principles that have worked for you in the past, but in a new format to break up the routine some.

I've run 2:35 (NYC - 25 mph winds), 2:30 (Chicago - great conditions), and 2:34 (Boston - this year, hot) off of Training Plan A with modest modifications, all from ages 42-45. It will get you ready.

Hi Smoove,

What modifcations do ytu make to Plan A?

As I said they were pretty modest.

I race about 4 times during most cycles, so I plugged those races in place of or in between certain workouts.

The marathon pace long runs are always a struggle for me, so I try to find at least one half marathon per cycle to use as a way to get that marathon pace run in. That usually requires some training schedule juggling. Similarly, I usually have to juggle my schedule for family vacations, work or similar things.

During the vo2max phase, I usually would cycle through my standard vo2max workouts rather than use the suggested workouts, but the principles remained the same.

I lengthened the taper one out of three of my marathons (3 weeks) and lowered the intensity for the last 2 weeks in each.

There may have been some other similarly minor modifications, but that is the majority of them.

Following Daniels is a good way to get hurt or burn out.

What is it about his approach that makes you say that?

I would say just the opposite with respect to Marathon Training Plan A. I will admit that the first time I laid out the plan in a calendar, it looked intimidating because of the high volume of threshold pace work and the fact that some of that work came near the end of some long runs. But when you really take a look at it, from 12 weeks out until race day, you never have more than two workouts in any week, with the second workout almost always being integrated into the long run, giving you 5 days per week without a hard or long effort. And 1 out of every 3 weeks you only do one workout, plus one long run at easy distance pace. You never go faster than threshold pace. Your most intense training weeks are your lowest volume training weeks and vice versa. You only hit your highest peak mileage 3 times during those 12 weeks,hit 90 percent of that 4 times, and the remaining 3 weeks before the taper are at 70-80% of your peak mileage

So I am not sure what it is about that approach that would result in injury or burnout. It is certainly a grind, but that is the reality of properly training for a possible max performance in the marathon. If anything, I usually here that Daniels doesn't push people enough because of his noted position of "don't go any harder than necessary to effectuate the desired adaptation" approach.

I'm interested in this Plan. Question, did you run your HM race(s) at M pace or HM pace?

I ran them at marathon pace. My purpose in signing up for them was that I find running at marathon pace by myself particularly difficult. Even with friends running with me, it can be very challenging. I like doing it in a race setting so that I have a closed course, people around me, water on the course, clocks, etc.

biogen wrote:

seeker of marathon wisdom wrote:

5E + 6M + 1T + 5M + 1T + 1M + 1E

oh man. if I was faced with this workout at the beginning of an 18 week block I would make it about a week before bailing and doing my own thing. I don't think I could complete this on untapered legs.

It's interesting that this thread came back up right now. I'm doing a Daniels half marathon plan, and yesterday's workout was 1E + 5M + 1T + 4M + 1E. I ran it as written and the effort was almost like a 10 mile race. But it was at the end of week 6 of an 18 week plan, and I haven't raced since Thanksgiving, so it was a confidence boost and not unduly hard. This exact workout doesn't come up again, but next time I would do warmup + 25 min M + 5 min T + 20 min M + cooldown and I think I would be just fine.

Exactly, Smoove. I'm a huge Daniels fan too.

Anybody who gets burned out on a Daniels plan didn't read the part in the book where Coach says you should be able to run your peak weekly mileage comfortably for a few weeks before starting the plan. Or didn't read the part about training at your current fitness, not goal fitness. I'm going to kill the next person who says they're training at their "goal VDOT".

Agree with your points about running at *current* VDOT, etc. I'm finishing up Phase II of a marathon training block and, like Smoove, use the second edition, plan A.

One question I have is just how important you guys think the "i" training is for the marathon. I raced a 5k indoors last week, so that took care of the "i" workout for that week (and established a new, better VDOT), but I find the 1000 or 1200 meter repeats a little intimidating (especially with my new VDOT) when I'm in marathon training mode (like, I fear I'll burn myself out and/or start racing my times from a couple weeks ago -- I know, this is a garbage excuse and easily answerable by "Don't race your workout -- follow your current VDOT," but still...).

My solution is to, more often than not, just go ahead and do fartleks instead at something that's clearly faster than "t" pace and probably in the "i" realm, but based more by feel.

The "t" workouts, though, I feel are like super important for the marathon -- and ESPECIALLY the TL, TLT, and MP workouts.

So, what do you guys make of the heavy focus on "I" in phase II?

I've built my plan around the I phase being my 5k season! So a few races, but no 5k training other than the I sessions and the races.

Smoove - your 3 week taper, how did that look in percentage terms? 70, 60, 50? The final week does look a little high to me...

I keep the vo2max workouts in. Of course they are intimidating - running at 5k pace sucks, it hurts. But that's part of the reason why we do it. That being said, I definitely agree with the idea that a race covers that workout for the week. And as far as doing it during marathon training, you really don't have any marathon-focused workouts while doing the vo2max workouts, just some increased volume - you are rationalizing your avoidance (as we all do). They are not absolutely mission critical, but they do a couple of things: they give you something to do from 18 weeks out until 12 weeks out so you don't get stuck in a rut doing only T and M pace work, and they make that T and M pace work feel much more manageable when it does come. So do your best to keep them in there.

I've used this plan three times.

First time, I peaked at 80 and my last three weeks were: 55, 40 and then 28 miles the week of the race excluding race day.

Second time, I peaked at 100 (once), 90 and 80 and the 100 almost broke me, so I dialed it back to: 59, 37 and then 26 miles the week of the race excluding race day.

Third time I peaked at 90 and my last three weeks were: 53, 48 and 32 (full 7 days since that was for Boston, which is obviously on a Monday).

But aside from the mileage, I really dialed the intensity back those last three weeks, with only a few quality workouts.

Yeah, good points, Smoove -- I suppose I'll grind out those repeat 1200s this week.

Pleas don't curse me 600m into the 4th interval.

Following up on this, Smoove, I did indeed find myself cursing on the 4th interval -- though not in your direction! Workout went fairly well. Did 4x1200 + 1x1600 with 3-min jogging rests (4:04, 4:03, 3:58, 4:07, 5:22). Guess I got a little lazy (read: hurt) on 4th.

But the real reason I'm bringing this thread back to life is that I'm now entering Phase III and have a question about all the threshold work.

Earlier in the book, Daniels says that 20-minute tempo runs are the ideal (though you can go slightly shorter or longer). Obviously, I don't think that's enough to prepare for a marathon. But I'm confused at how, right off the bat, I'm supposed to do 4x10-12 minutes at T-pace -- that's over twice the volume at T that he says is ideal earlier in the book! Should I still be gunning for the T-pace that my VDOT calls for, or slow it down a bit?

I think you will be okay with 4 x 10 minutes (essentially 4 x 2 miles) at tempo pace.

If you read the section of his book that discusses cruise intervals, you will see that he emphasizes that cruise intervals are intended to help runners extend the volume of their threshold efforts, not the pace.

So the key is to not go from the 5:40 pace (or whatever it is) that you run on 20 minute tempo runs down to 5:30-5:32 pace because the individual blocks of tempo running are shorter. Too many people do this (including me sometimes), and it is surprisingly easy to do (at least for the first 2-3 bouts of tempo running in the session) because those 2 minute breaks actually go much farther in making you feel recovered than you would expect.

I would also advocate doing this as 4 x 3200 on the track the first time around. These workouts feel so much easier on the track because you don't have to spend nearly as much mental energy on worrying about pace since you have a reliable way of checking and confirming where you are (and making any necessary adjustments) every 100 meters or so (as compared to wondering if your GPS is still trying to get locked in on the right pace when you do these on the roads). You can move them back on to the roads after a few sessions on the track once you have built up some confidence that you are indeed capable of handling the increased volume and are capable of locking into the right perceived effort.

Hi Smoove. have you got a link to the plan A? i have the 3rd edition and was thinking of doing the 2q plan to prepare for a marathon possibly in October. would be interested to see what sort of schedule you used with the plan A.

also habe you used daniels half marathon plan?

Which of daniels marathon plans would suit me aiming for 2.55 in 10 months. i have the 3rd edition.

currently average about 30 miles a week. last race was a half marathon in 1.22 2 months ago. 10 mile race was 1.01 before that. peaked mileage at 45. have just been maintaining some fitness since on about 25-30 miles a week max.

what sort of plan do you think i should follow from january until the marathon plan starts later in the year?

any advice very much appreciated guys.