workouts for 800m kid with raw talent?

if he has never trained i would expect him to drop 10 seconds pretty easily off >20 mpw

good workouts to train would be:

8x200 at around 30-32 with 1:30-2 min rest

3x1 mile at5k pace with 5 min rest

when peaking for a race

3x400 with 5 min rest at around 62 pace (goal pace)

hope this helps!

Good advice. Thanks!

How about 400m reps at goal pace? I'm thinking it would be helpful for him to get "feel" for goal 800m pace. Pace obviously was problem for him in last race. Not sure how many or how much rest. Suggestions?

4x400@goal pace off 5 minutes recovery is a great race predictor and peak workout, but it's not something I would do multiple times during the bulk of the season.

200 and 300 repeats at goal 800 pace allow athletes to get in good amounts of volume at race speeds, and tend to make excellent workouts that are less difficult to recover from than 400s at race pace.

Is this kid going to be racing more this season? Most schools have finished up outdoor, so would this training be for next winter?

Thanks for reply.

Yes, school track season is over. But we have several all-comers and AAU track meets in our area. We can have a mini-season in June-July.

He plays soccer in fall. So we can do track in summer and not worry about messing up summer XC training.

8 x 300m 100m walk a good 800m session

if he hasn't done any real training and you start to train him for races that are occurring in 2-3 weeks, he might actually go backward. the training will not take effect until the races are over. therefore, be conservative.

your thoughts about learning pacing are your best idea. 200s, 300s, 400s, 500s at race pace with lots of rest.

too late to "train" fitness or energy systems if the goal is to run faster in the next 2-3 weeks.

15 year old running 2:10 with no training at all?

I serious think dad is full of crap.

"If he trains and stays motivated"??

If this kid loses motivation after less than 3 weeks of practice he's not a runner period.

2-3 weeks of practice is not going to make a difference.

Pacing himself? It's the 800m...you run a little less than your 400m pace and do it for 2 laps. That's your pacing

By the way....you are just trolling anyways.

Why would you think hes full of crap? If hes athletic and in shape from other sports 2:10 isnt surprising, it shows he has natural talent.

I wouldnt worry about the summer races too much, have him try to become a good racer. he needs to start developing good training habits if he wants to be good. Who knows if he even likes to run? If he wants to get to the next level he has to love running so try to get him passionate about it.

Get him on a good training program for the summer and do XC in the fall. My times dramatically dropped once I started XC and running long summer miles(40-50 MPW). I also did a lot of cross training in high school to not be burnt out.

Sorry, not a troll and not full of crap...At least not full of crap about this specific matter...Some of us have better things to do than troll or go on anti-troll witch hunts.

Thanks to those who offered helpful suggestions about workouts. Advice about burnout, backsliding, and being conservative also duly noted and appreciated.

Unfortunately, I don't think I can get him to do XC in fall. He seems committed to soccer. He doesn't believe me when I tell him he has more potential in running than soccer. Maybe he thinks dad is full of crap or trolling.

Can't remember where I read this but its good stuff

'Explaining young phenoms in our sport.

There are 5 major components involved:

1) Natural Talent

2) Anaerobic Development

3) Aerobic Development

4) Quality Coaching

5) Other (lifestyle, nutrition, habits, etc)

The current Junior systems in the U.S. and Britian (and many other countries as well) take athletes with #1 (Talent) and seek to quickly develop them with #2 (Anaerobic Development) and if #3 and # 4 are sufficient enough they have some early success (see your list of 15-16 yr old for 1500).

But the faster you get the more important it is to have all 5 things squared away.

From what I have seen the problem with the Junior systems is not with #1 or #2, we have plenty of #1 and know how to do #2. The problems with the Junior system is the lack of #3 at an early age, the lack of #4 to realize that #3 is lacking and #5 is lacking because of our modern lifestyle and the lack of discipline we show as a society.

I have seen #3, #4 and #5 kill off or stagnate countless talented American young phenoms.

Just having a deficieny in any 1 of those 5 areas can seriously set a young runner back, a deficieny in 2 makes it nearly impossible to make a world class level. But by having a lot of #1 and doing #2 you can show alot of promise early (and be proclaimed "The next big thing") only for your progress to be derailed by #3, #4 or #5. (Only 4 on your list make it to bette rthan 3:38)(po10 list)

There are those who have sufficient enough #1 that they can perform remarkably well despite weakness in other areas but they never make it all the way to the top.

Read this and think about it. Young phenoms and their parents, don't ignore any of these areas or be so blinded by your abundance of #1 and early success that you begin to believe that all 5 components don't apply to you and your ultimate success.'

Basically if you want some short term success, do lots of fast intervals. If you want long term success you want lots of aerobic work.

Some guy that runs wrote:

Can't remember where I read this but its good stuff

'Explaining young phenoms in our sport.

There are 5 major components involved:

1) Natural Talent

2) Anaerobic Development

3) Aerobic Development

4) Quality Coaching

5) Other (lifestyle, nutrition, habits, etc)........

^^^Agree with all that. The only caveat is that long-term development is really not important in most cases. Most youth stars are simply NOT going to be world class runners that make a living running.

OP: Not a lot to be done in the short term though he still might (or might not) drop time. Its is true that "workouts" will be more effective and less apt to cause injury if the kid has some amount of base conditioning (running conditioning). Take a long term view and aim to include even just 3 runs a week along with soccer. 3-3-5 or 4-4-6, just something. Then next spring, the workouts will be effective.

Point taken--not enough time to see much gains in fitness in 2-3 weeks. Even so, I think he can drop a couple of seconds just by more even pacing. His 61-69 lap split is NOT ideal way to run 800m. He and I agreed that maybe if he went ~63 for first lap maybe he could have finished around 2:08.

So that could be an easy way to improve with NO gains in fitness.

coach dad guy wrote:

Point taken--not enough time to see much gains in fitness in 2-3 weeks. Even so, I think he can drop a couple of seconds just by more even pacing. His 61-69 lap split is NOT ideal way to run 800m. He and I agreed that maybe if he went ~63 for first lap maybe he could have finished around 2:08.

So that could be an easy way to improve with NO gains in fitness.

Correct, which is why workouts now should teach pacing without wiping your son out. A few posters gave you good examples of workouts your son should do.

.............................. wrote:

if he hasn't done any real training and you start to train him for races that are occurring in 2-3 weeks, he might actually go backward. the training will not take effect until the races are over. therefore, be conservative.

your thoughts about learning pacing are your best idea. 200s, 300s, 400s, 500s at race pace with lots of rest.

too late to "train" fitness or energy systems if the goal is to run faster in the next 2-3 weeks.

This!!!

Race rhythm reps, mostly to all under 40 seconds, would be the thing here. For beginning runners, every new pace is a new skill. Help him learn to be comfortable and relaxed running 30-31" 200 pace by running 150's, 200's and 250's at that pace.

And at this stage of this development, he'll get more help by running faster reps than running slower and longer. He could probably run 54-55 for 400 right now, so I'd suggest 5x100 w/10m fly in 12.2-4. He already has a lot of aerobic and anaerobic development from soccer, so doing some reps at a faster 400 pace will help him learn to be more efficient more quickly

Also, I'd suggest that he not race exclusively at 800m. Have him do some 400's too. It's fun to run fast and he may turn out to be even better at the shorter race

coach dad guy wrote:

Sorry, not a troll and not full of crap...At least not full of crap about this specific matter...Some of us have better things to do than troll or go on anti-troll witch hunts.

Thanks to those who offered helpful suggestions about workouts. Advice about burnout, backsliding, and being conservative also duly noted and appreciated.

Unfortunately, I don't think I can get him to do XC in fall. He seems committed to soccer. He doesn't believe me when I tell him he has more potential in running than soccer. Maybe he thinks dad is full of crap or trolling.

Actually you are full of crap.

You are clearly more interested in his running than he is.

Dad he's not a runner get that through your head. Why do I say this? Because you think he will lose motivation in 2 or 3 weeks. Plan and simple that's why.

800m success is a full year commitment with proper anaerobic and aerobic development. He's not prepared to put in this time that's clear already.

You want him to run it needs to be the other way around.

Back off dad you are going to kill any chances of your son being the runner YOU want him to be.

oh shut up

Sigh. Wrong again, Arthur. I never said I feared he would lose motivation after 2-3 weeks. I mentioned 2-3 weeks timeframe because that is our WINDOW OF AVAILABILITY when we are in town during summer track season.

I'm amused to watch you thrash about on this question. First you accuse me of lying. Then you decide story is true enough to for you to pass judgment on dad's parenting and 15-year-old kid's motivation. Each time you reveal yourself to be blowhard with poor command of English. Each time you show yourself to be pitifully less insightful and less generous than every other person who responded. Not sure why you feel compelled to be so hostile. That's your problem, not mine.

Done with you now Arthur. Go find another car to chase and bark at.

That is a very gifted young man. Whatever you do, do not sour him on the sport.

Track can be a wicked b!tch. You are out there by yourself. What you do is 100% dependent on you. Some kids just prefer the camaraderie provided by team sports.

Good luck, I hope he becomes a runner.