I know LT pace is the fastest pace at which the body does not accumulate lactic acid, and is thus faster than aerobic threshold (AT) pace. But is there an easier way to figure out the LT pace, and is it better to run a little bit faster or a little slower than this pace?
Use Friel's method. Or get an estimate by plugging your race time into a Daniels or McMillan calculators.
10-20 sec/mile slower than current 10K race pace should be good enough.
Run an all-out 15K. Finish in 1:00:02. Divide by 9.3.
1 min slower than race pace. That is the standard that is used for tempo/threshold pace.
Scorpion_runner wrote:
1 min slower than race pace. That is the standard that is used for tempo/threshold pace.
1. No it isn't.
2. Race pace is different for different races.
scorpion jogger wrote:
Scorpion_runner wrote:1 min slower than race pace. That is the standard that is used for tempo/threshold pace.
1. No it isn't.
2. Race pace is different for different races.
No. IT's not. It should always be 1 min slower than race pace at any given distance.
if your race pace for the mile is 5 mins, and you want to do the mile at LT pace, then your pace would be 6 mins!
If your race time for the 5k is 18mins, which is a 6min pace, and you want to do a LT pace 5k run, then your pace would be 7mins!
Plus Dr. Daniels says so.
Also, If you LT pace is any slower than 1 min slower than race pace, than that would be an easy run, and totally defeat the purpose of stretching you Lactate threshold because there would barely be any accumulation. ...Also, if it is any faster than 1 min slower than race pace, then that would be TOO much lactate accumulation.
It's a steady state ( not going above LT and not dipping below), and 1 min slower than race pace gives that steady state better than any other pace regardless of the distance.
Scorpion_runner wrote:
scorpion jogger wrote:1. No it isn't.
2. Race pace is different for different races.
No. IT's not. It should always be 1 min slower than race pace at any given distance.
if your race pace for the mile is 5 mins, and you want to do the mile at LT pace, then your pace would be 6 mins!
If your race time for the 5k is 18mins, which is a 6min pace, and you want to do a LT pace 5k run, then your pace would be 7mins!
Plus Dr. Daniels says so.
Threshold pace per Daniels is one specific pace (roughly race pace for a 1 hour race) not a different pace for each race you run. It's about 20-30 seconds per mile slower than 5K pace, not 1 min slower.
Scorpion_runner doesn't understand tempo at all and is very mis-guided. 18 min 5k is not 6 min pace, by the way.
The easiest way to find tempo pace (which DOES NOT CHANGE based on the distance you are running) is to look up up your current vdot number and then look at Daniels pace chart. You can get all that free online.
This pace Daniels gives will be an approximation. I use it in conjunction with a heart rate monitor (85%-90% range) and pay attention to how I feel, specifically breathing.
Hope this helps. And don't listen to Scorpion_runner.
To keep it simple it is about 1 minute slower than mile race pace
"Tim bits and bits" I don`t understand why you say Scorpion runner doesn`t understand tempo at all...... ? You are both right in what you are saying.... :)
coach j.s wrote:
"Tim bits and bits" I don`t understand why you say Scorpion runner doesn`t understand tempo at all...... ? You are both right in what you are saying.... :)
exactly, people just want to argue. It's not worth it. But there words are forever recorded.
Tim Bits and Bits wrote:
18 min 5k is not 6 min pace, by the way.
There are many ways to achieve an 18 min 5k, and 6 min pace is just one of them.
If I divide 18 mins by 3miles, that's 6 mins .. so one could steady pace and run a 5k race running each mile at about 6mins and achieve an 18min 5k....now of course everyone knows that is - /+ a few seconds here and there.
I'm not sure you had your coffee yet, or you brain woke up on the wrong side of your head.
Scorpion_runner wrote:
There are many ways to achieve an 18 min 5k, and 6 min pace is just one of them.
If I divide 18 mins by 3miles, that's 6 mins .. so one could steady pace and run a 5k race running each mile at about 6mins and achieve an 18min 5k....now of course everyone knows that is - /+ a few seconds here and there.
I'm not sure you had your coffee yet, or you brain woke up on the wrong side of your head.
I'll agree that there are many ways to achieve an 18 min 5k, but running 6 min, 6 min, 6 min is not one of them. That would be closer to a 19 min 5k.
If I divide 18 by 3.1 I get 5:47 per mile. -/+ a lot of seconds here and there.
Look, I appreciate your input, but you are wrong. Running 6 min for a mile tempo (5 min mile PR) is not even close to the same thing as running 21 min 3 mile (18:45 5k pr). That's your 1 min rule. It's just plain incorrect.
Tempo pace DOES NOT CHANGE due to the duration of the tempo run. The best advice is to find your vdot and then look up the correct pace on Daniels table.
The guy who said to add one min to your mile PR is the next best thing. It's not perfect, but it is close for PRs under 6 min or so. It gets a little wonky for slower runners, though.
Scorpion_runner's "add one min to the race pace of the distance you are running" just makes no sense whatsoever. I'd be running slower than aerobic pace on a 5 mile tempo run if I followed that advice.
Scorpion_runner wrote:
Also, If you LT pace is any slower than 1 min slower than race pace, than that would be an easy run, and totally defeat the purpose of stretching you Lactate threshold because there would barely be any accumulation. ...Also, if it is any faster than 1 min slower than race pace, then that would be TOO much lactate accumulation.
It's a steady state ( not going above LT and not dipping below), and 1 min slower than race pace gives that steady state better than any other pace regardless of the distance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxJVtPT6rHo
By the way, did you even watch this video? Daniels himself says "LT is A SPEED at which lactate production & clearing balances. Any faster than that and lactate rises, any slower and lactate lowers. Train at that speed. Not above it. And not below it"
A SPEED. A SINGLE SPEED. Does not change with duration of workout.
Just race a 10k and then look up your tempo pace using your vdot
Jimmy21 wrote:
Just race a 10k and then look up your tempo pace using your vdot
Any race will do, actually: 1500, 3k, 5k, 10k. But you need a race or TT to find your fitness level.
Ok. Daniels says my "threshold" pace is 5:45. So LT pace is one speed, and you shouldn't go above OR below? Will I still get benefits by staying just below, on the safe side, or will that reduce the improvements from it?
For other reference, my PR's that could be useful are 4:49 for the mile, 10:16 for the 3200, and 16:46 for the 5K.
Yes, your vdot is 62 and your LT pace is 5:45.
If you are running longer tempo runs, I start off a bit below my prescribed pace and see how I feel. I listen to my breathing and look at my heart rate. If I am feeling ok and my heart rate is on the lower side of the range, I might pick up the pace a bit. I never go past 90% max heart rate on a tempo run.
If I am doing tempo on the track, I pretty much run Daniels pace because the reps are shorter and I am getting some rest between them to bring my heart rate down a bit.
When in doubt, stay below your prescribed pace.
4 x 1600 on the track at 5:45 pace with 1-2 min rest between reps.
4 mile run on a trail starting at 5:50-5:55 pace and finishing at 5:40-5:45 pace if all the data (heart rate, breathing, and feel of run) indicate that I am under control.
The more you do tempo, the more you begin to recognize what it feels like to run that pace. But notice that the pace stayed about the same for both workouts. The second one is mentally more difficult, let me tell you. Start with reps on the track. Build up to longer reps before attempting a long tempo run.