Could blood thinners increase performance?

I don't think there's anything wrong with your reasoning. Either blood thinners improve performance or Canova is wrong about why EPO won't work on his guys.

Yes. Asprin, warfarin,etc.... blood thinners have been used to reduce blood viscosity created by EPO use.

In fact, extended EPO use would lead to elevated/extreme viscosity of the blood. leading to health problems - essentially sludge like blood- that would essentially necessitate the use of thinners.

many cyclists (80-90s in particular) have died due to EPO abuse. sudden death at night.

green lantern wrote:

Yes. Asprin, warfarin,etc.... blood thinners have been used to reduce blood viscosity created by EPO use.

In fact, extended EPO use would lead to elevated/extreme viscosity of the blood. leading to health problems - essentially sludge like blood- that would essentially necessitate the use of thinners.

many cyclists (80-90s in particular) have died due to EPO abuse. sudden death at night.

Thanks. So you are saying there examples of athletes using blood thinners to increase performance?

Also thanks for clearing up my confusion regarding viscosity. Sorry about mixing that up.

green lantern wrote:

Yes. Asprin, warfarin,etc.... blood thinners have been used to reduce blood viscosity created by EPO use.

In fact, extended EPO use would lead to elevated/extreme viscosity of the blood. leading to health problems - essentially sludge like blood- that would essentially necessitate the use of thinners.

many cyclists (80-90s in particular) have died due to EPO abuse. sudden death at night.

Okay, I've heard about this before. I know it's logical, but do you know if there is any evidence that the blood thinners improve performance or are they just used to keep you alive? Put another way, if you could dose the EPO just high enough to not harm you, would adding a dose of blood thinners improve performance?

That's why aspirin is consumed like candy.

Blood thinners for the average person are a terrible idea. Don't confuse blood thinners for people taking EPO as a reason why a person not taking EPO should consider them.

The side effects of most blood thinners include muscle pain. Low blood viscosity can also mean that your thinned blood isn't carrying as many useful things in it, so your muscles suffer greater fatigue and longer recovery. Many old guys on blood thinners get sore muscles very quickly when they try to exercise. Blood thinning also alters organ efficiency. Just life a healthy lifestyle (diet/exercise) and if you think you have something askew like blood levels get it checked out by a doctor.

Shoebacca wrote:

Blood thinners for the average person are a terrible idea. Don't confuse blood thinners for people taking EPO as a reason why a person not taking EPO should consider them.

The side effects of most blood thinners include muscle pain. Low blood viscosity can also mean that your thinned blood isn't carrying as many useful things in it, so your muscles suffer greater fatigue and longer recovery. Many old guys on blood thinners get sore muscles very quickly when they try to exercise. Blood thinning also alters organ efficiency. Just life a healthy lifestyle (diet/exercise) and if you think you have something askew like blood levels get it checked out by a doctor.

Well im not talking about blood thinners for the average person, but blood thinners for top athletes, possibly taking the drug i a very small amounth.

barfmarf wrote:

Shoebacca wrote:

Blood thinners for the average person are a terrible idea. Don't confuse blood thinners for people taking EPO as a reason why a person not taking EPO should consider them.

The side effects of most blood thinners include muscle pain. Low blood viscosity can also mean that your thinned blood isn't carrying as many useful things in it, so your muscles suffer greater fatigue and longer recovery. Many old guys on blood thinners get sore muscles very quickly when they try to exercise. Blood thinning also alters organ efficiency. Just life a healthy lifestyle (diet/exercise) and if you think you have something askew like blood levels get it checked out by a doctor.

Well im not talking about blood thinners for the average person, but blood thinners for top athletes, possibly taking the drug i a very small amounth.

Possibly mixed with other drugs to avoid the negative effects. Im basicly wondering if there is reason to believe that top athletes can't increase their performance with drugs, or if that's just bullshit.

Don't believe his bs. He is an Italian coach in Kenya. He has EPO connections. He used to come on here and make these weak arguments that EPO wouldn't work on his athletes. EPO DOES work and it works damn well on his athletes

test2 wrote:

green lantern wrote:

Yes. Asprin, warfarin,etc.... blood thinners have been used to reduce blood viscosity created by EPO use.

In fact, extended EPO use would lead to elevated/extreme viscosity of the blood. leading to health problems - essentially sludge like blood- that would essentially necessitate the use of thinners.

many cyclists (80-90s in particular) have died due to EPO abuse. sudden death at night.

Okay, I've heard about this before. I know it's logical, but do you know if there is any evidence that the blood thinners improve performance or are they just used to keep you alive? Put another way, if you could dose the EPO just high enough to not harm you, would adding a dose of blood thinners improve performance?

Right, the blood thinners are just there to counteract excessive EPO use. They don't make you faster.

Excessive EPO does cause extremely thick blood. However, this only makes you slower in the sense that you suddenly die.

Fake journalists wrote:

Excessive EPO does cause extremely thick blood. However, this only makes you slower in the sense that you suddenly die.

Why wouldn't thicker blood make you slower? Wouldn't thicker blood make it harder for the heart to pump blood?

Fake journalists wrote:

test2 wrote:

Okay, I've heard about this before. I know it's logical, but do you know if there is any evidence that the blood thinners improve performance or are they just used to keep you alive? Put another way, if you could dose the EPO just high enough to not harm you, would adding a dose of blood thinners improve performance?

Right, the blood thinners are just there to counteract excessive EPO use. They don't make you faster.

Excessive EPO does cause extremely thick blood. However, this only makes you slower in the sense that you suddenly die.

I suspect this is true. We probably wouldn't have seen so many athletes die if it weren't possible to race very well while near death's door.

Does anyone know what the mechanism of death is when you take too much EPO? People talk about high viscosity but is it really that? Or is it a higher risk of clotting or something? I could imagine a scary risk of clotting might occur even when the blood was still flowing enough to deliver high levels of oxygen.

barfmarf wrote:

Fake journalists wrote:

Excessive EPO does cause extremely thick blood. However, this only makes you slower in the sense that you suddenly die.

Why wouldn't thicker blood make you slower? Wouldn't thicker blood make it harder for the heart to pump blood?

Yeah, that's Mr. Canova's argument. On the simplest level there are competing trends. More red bloods cells means more oxygen per volume but it also means higher viscosity so lower flow rate. Oxygen delivery is the product of carrying capacity and flow rate so if oxygen carrying capacity increased faster than viscosity, then it'd would be a net benefit, if it increased slower, a net detriment. The question is what happens in practice. Given the successes of people with naturally high hematocrits (e.g. Eero Mäntyranta) and the success people seem to have on EPO (e.g. Rita Jeptoo, Genzebe Dibaba), I suspect that the gains in carrying capacity outweigh the decreases in flow rate. Mr. Canova claims otherwise.