why aren't there world class 400/800m guys?

David Rudisha could be, Kenya could get a good 4x4 when I think about it, they have some good 400mh guys too

Van Niekerk could be a killer 800 runner

Ripper wrote:

Van Niekerk could be a killer 800 runner

I'd love to see what he could do or what Michael Johnson could have done in the 800m. Is it simply a matter of sprinters not wanting to try the eight?

Physiological demands are far more similar between the 1500 and 5k than the 400 and 800.

There isn't a totally set consensus on the number (and I'll probably get torn apart by a few other posters for this), but 400 --> 800 is generally considered a shift from about 10% aerobic/90% anaerobic to 50% aerobic/50% anaerobic. 1500 is closer to 90% aerobic, with 5k slightly higher.

That being said, there are a few guys out there who I'd consider world class at both. I imagine 2012 Rudisha could run low 44s for a quarter. 2015 Bosse and Tuka were probably sub 45 in peak shape. Amos split sub 45 on at least one occasion.

400m record is 12% slower than the 200m record

800m record is 17% slower than the 400m record

1500m record is 9% slower than 800m record

5000m record is 10% slower than the 1500m record

10k record is 4% slower than the 5k record

The marathon record is 10% slower than the 10k record

So, 400m to 800m is the biggest gap in terms of what speed of running you're doing

there's the thing where it takes about a minute for the aerobic system to fully click in, right? I suppose that would make a two-minute race qualitatively different from a one-minute race. Yet you name some 800m guys who could probably run 44-low... I think it's culture. First week at track practice you are sorted into either working with the sprint coach and running 100 - 400m or you working with the distance coach and running 800m and up. Except for filling empty relay slots, there isn't much crossover between groups.

HardLoper wrote:

400m record is 12% slower than the 200m record

800m record is 17% slower than the 400m record

1500m record is 9% slower than 800m record

5000m record is 10% slower than the 1500m record

10k record is 4% slower than the 5k record

The marathon record is 10% slower than the 10k record

So, 400m to 800m is the biggest gap in terms of what speed of running you're doing

huh, nice point. So for Mo Farah to train simultaneously for the 1500 and 10k would actually involve training for a narrower range of speeds than were Rudisha to train for the 400 and 800m.

test2 wrote:

there's the thing where it takes about a minute for the aerobic system to fully click in, right? I suppose that would make a two-minute race qualitatively different from a one-minute race. Yet you name some 800m guys who could probably run 44-low... I think it's culture. First week at track practice you are sorted into either working with the sprint coach and running 100 - 400m or you working with the distance coach and running 800m and up. Except for filling empty relay slots, there isn't much crossover between groups.

The thing is, 44-low is almost definitely the absolute ceiling for some of those guys--nobody's run sub 44 without serious 100m speed (10.3 or faster?). Also keep in mind that the 400/800 double is one of the most difficult doubles in the sport (probably next to 400H/800 and 3000St/1500) and an athlete who's a serious medal threat in the 8 doesn't want to tire himself out running rounds of the 4.

Also I'm probably overestimating the 400m ability of some of those guys. I thought Tuka had a 45 mid PR but he's actually got 46 from last year, Amos has a 44.9 relay split, and Bosse hasn't actually run an open 400.

HardLoper wrote:400m record is 12% slower than the 200m record

800m record is 17% slower than the 400m record

1500m record is 9% slower than 800m record

5000m record is 10% slower than the 1500m record

10k record is 4% slower than the 5k record

The marathon record is 10% slower than the 10k record

So, 400m to 800m is the biggest gap in terms of what speed of running you're doing

as pointed out, 800 is "bridesmaid's event" sandwiched between 2 glamour events, the 400 & most glamorous for genuine track fans in the 1500

mathematically you can estimate the equivalence using log principle that relates distances :

~ "a symmetrical distance run ( = number of even number bends/straights ) with an even-number clocking will have an equivalent even-number clocking at double the distance"

or more simply, whole laps run in even number-time starting with shortest distance of 1 lap

the distances are 400 / 800 / 1600

& equivalent times are

44.00

1'42.00

3'44.00

( 200m needs slight adjustment as non-symmetrical with 1 bend + 1 straight

& I get it as ~ 19.75 )

mj's 43.18 = 1'40.36

which was already lot faster than Kip's then 1'41.11WR

( albeit 800s are often poorly run & his zurich 1'41.24 shouda been ~ 1'40-low if not for suicidal 23.0/48.3 opener )

wayde's 43.03 has put equivalent 800 time down to

1'40.06

which is fractionally faster than Kip's zurich shape in ideal race & likely matched by Big-Man's solo 1'40.91 after rounds, including a 1'44+, & final run off another suicidal opening 200 of 23.4-solo

the 2 Kenyans definitely matched mj's ole wr of 43.18 for calibre of run if run ideally with ideal splits/drafting/rest/etc, but wayde's run has edged the synthetic track 400 ahead of the synthetic track 800 in the synthetic track era

( albeit, I reckon Ryun in '66 & '67 had lines of fit on a '70s track of

'66 :

~ 44.25 / 1'40.00 ->

2'09.62

3'27.04

3'44.48

but improved distance in '67 at

~ 44.25 / 1'39.20 ->

2'08.31

3'24.20

3'41.27

his '67 800 performance equivalent for 400/200/100 I woud estimate at

42.60

19.05

9.52

i'd state without hesitation that Ryun was the most talented guy who ever stepped on a track from 100m - 10k until bolt who's 19.19 into a wind off stoopidly quick bend was probably 19.05 in 0 wind off sensible bend, but this was his 7 the or 8th race & can legitimately claim he couda run at worst 19-flat in a 1-off that meet

although I wouda add Ryun was only barely 20y when at season peak in '67 & bolt turned 23y the day after his 19.19 )

test2 wrote:

there's the thing where it takes about a minute for the aerobic system to fully click in, right? I suppose that would make a two-minute race qualitatively different from a one-minute race. Yet you name some 800m guys who could probably run 44-low... I think it's culture. First week at track practice you are sorted into either working with the sprint coach and running 100 - 400m or you working with the distance coach and running 800m and up. Except for filling empty relay slots, there isn't much crossover between groups.

Most 800m guys these day are people who turned out to be too slow for the 400m more than guys that are doubling between the 800/1500. You do still see that type of runner but they are a lot rarer than 20 years ago.

What is this horseshit?

1:40 for Niekerk?

What the fck wrote:

What is this horseshit?

1:40 for Niekerk?

He is saying the performances are equivalent. He is not saying WVN can run 1:40.

test2 wrote:

why aren't there world class 400/800m guys?

400/800m=.5m. .5m is way too short for a race.

"~ "a symmetrical distance run ( = number of even number bends/straights ) with an even-number clocking will have an equivalent even-number clocking at double the distance"

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8064801#ixzz4YzXo9BV6

Is there an equation for that? Because I don't follow.

HardLoper wrote:

He is saying the performances are equivalent. He is not saying WVN can run 1:40.

Thank You

Ascerbism / Conciseness / Incisiveness / Intelligence

are Traits woefully under-represented...

test2 wrote:

The only man I can think of who was world best at both was Alberto Juantorena whereas you often see world leading runners in other pairs of neighboring distances. The men's world records in the 100/200m and the 5/10km are currently held by the same people, for example, and for a long time Michael Johnson had the WR's in the 200/400m. The distance jump from the 1500m to the 5000m is proportionally larger but you see a lot of athletes who are world-class at both. So is the 400/800m different and if so why?

Harald Schmid and Jarmila Kratochvilova.

wildlife wrote:

Harald Schmid and Jarmila Kratochvilova.

I think I forgot about Kratochvilova because I don't see her performances as legitimate. Granted many records may be be equally illegitimate for all that I know.

Schmid was mostly a 400m hurdler but ran a quick open 400. I wasn't aware he ran the 800.

Here's why: wrote:

test2 wrote:

why aren't there world class 400/800m guys?

400/800m=.5m. .5m is way too short for a race.

/thread

That's the line between sprint and distance.

Different types of runners.