Lydiard/Wetmore Question

To the best of my knowledge, his program is the only one in the collegiate ranks to receive Lydiard's endorsement.

The way I interpreted Lydiard's system, there are several key characteristics.

1) Long Period of Base Training (ideally, up to 8 months)

2) One month of training emphasizing hills and sprints

3) 20 mile+ run every week until peaking

4) Very little "interval" training, most of Lydiard's speed work consists of time trials and 2 mile runs alternating sprint and float

5) Lots of quality aerobic training

6) Very specific phases of training with particular training emphasis each phase (ie aerobic base, hills, speed, sharpening, peaking/racing)

Wetmore does 1), 3), and 5) but I don't think he spends a month specifically on hills and sprints, nor does he do primarily time trial type training in the spring. But, in general, he does follow the Lydiard structure of training as much as the college system aalows him to. Lydiard probably wouldn't have his guys racing in January and February, but there isn't much Wetmore can do about that.

That said, it seems that while other programs use the some of the basic Lydiard principles, Wetmore focuses a lot more on aerobic training during the cross country season (2 long runs per week) than most other major programs do. I wouldn't say Wetmore is the only college coach who uses the Lydiard approach, but he probably follows it the most closely.

It would be interesting to see what Torres' training is now in comparison to what he did as a CU athlete.

From his books and workshops:

1. Conditioning (as long as possible):

*Various runs over various terrains.

*Up to 100 miles in singles

*Additional easy morning runs up to 30 minutes

*Long run of 2-2.5 hours

*Can do a few days of striding or even a couple time trials, but goal is AEROBIC development.

2. Hill Resistance (4 weeks):

*3 days of hill exercise: 15 minute warmup, 3 minutes uphill, 3 minute jog, stride downhill, 3 minute jog, ~400m of short sprints, repeat to last an hour (that was his exact hill routine, but they bounded up a short 300-400m hill like a pogo stick, try it, it's fun)

*3 days of sprint work: 6-10 x 100m

*Long run up to 2 hours

3. Anaerobic Training (4 weeks):

*3 days of interval training: distances, times don't matter, just finish tired and not wanting to do more, he suggests 3 miles worth of intervals w/same distance jog (800 fast, 800 jog, etc)

*3 days of sprint training: fartlek, short sprints, 6-10 x 100m.

*Long run up to 2 hours

4. Co-ordination of Training (6 weeks):

*This is where training becomes more personalized, so far everyone has been running more or less the same from 800 runners to 10k runners

*One day of sprinting 50m every 100m (or 100m every 200m) for 2-4k.

*One day of time trial at goal distance

*One day of training based on previous time trial (Examples: If you ran 5k and slowed quite a bit at the end, run a 10k time trial for endurance. If you stayed pretty even but not a lot of "zip", do a 3k time trial. Also it would be wise to do some race pace work from time to time maybe 6-10x400 or something similar)

*Developmental races can count as time trials

*Long run up to 90 minutes.

5. Freshening up (2 weeks)

*Time Trial at race distance

*Race or time trial at 1/2 race distance

*One day of sprinting 50m every 100m (or 100m every 200m) for 2-4k.

*Relaxed striding, 6x100.

*Second week: wind sprints, short time trial 400-1500m, easy jogging, first important race

6. Continuation of Racing (until race season over)

*striding 6x200

*time trial

*race

It would seem his schedule is more for those focusing on one racing season a year.

A lot of coaches follow a Lydiard based program. It doesn't have to include every detail to be based on Lydiard's ideas. If you take what coaches were doing before Lydiard and compare it to what coaches are doing now you'd see most programs follow some kind of Lydiard motivated motif.

Alan

I don't mean to be rude, but why does everyone talk about Lydiard in such reverent tones? He was a great coach, but people always speak of things he approved and randomly invoke him at all points in a discussion.

I think any coach could say he was influenced by Lydiard much the way Led Zeppelin was influenced by Bach. It is straining the connection a bit.

I have made two observations on the Lydiard system:

1. It works and almost everyone agrees that it does.

2. Those same people that agree that it works don't follow that system.

I also believe that there has been so significant improvement on what Lydiard has given us and his system is still viable today and superior to all other systems. Wetmore's success at Colorado is testament to this.

I think the reason people reject Lydiard is because it requires patience. Hearing that it takes 5 to 7 years of consistent training to reach your full potential as a runner is not music to many ears. This is why people can acknowledge the effectiveness of the training but still reject it. They want to be great right now.

I also think people have a simplistic view of Lydiard as being just high mileage. Actually, I think Lydiard's system is very balanced. Lydiard believed that it wasn't so much the amount of miles each week so much as the accumulation of those miles over long periods of time. Consistency counts more than a few eye popping weekly totals. A year of 80 mile weeks is far better than 10 weeks of 100+ miles. I think this is why many American runners say they work hard when they really don't. They bust out some high mileage for awhile and act like they've done something, and then are mystified as to why they still suck.

This phenomenon explains why many runners and other endurance athletes have a "breakthrough" later in their careers often in their late 20's and early 30's. They didn't plan on it, but the accumulation of years of training finally pays off. Just think what they would have accomplished if they had not wasted time going up blind alleys in their training trying to reinvent the wheel.

The other thing that pisses me off is the injury factor. The fact is that just about any system of training produces its share of injuries. Yet, as soon as someone doing the Lydiard program gets injured, they feel it is time to abandon the program and try something totally different. Nevermind that they get injured on the new program.

Injuries are a part of running. It is the blessed few that are able to get through a career without an injury of one sort or another. It is also the very few that are chronically injured such that they accomplish nothing at all. Runners need to show some maturity and realize they are going to have to deal with these setbacks.

It all comes down to immaturity and impatience, and American distance runners have both of these vices in spades. Their fans aren't much better.

Out.

Kilgore wrote:

Consistency counts more than a few eye popping weekly totals. A year of 80 mile weeks is far better than 10 weeks of 100+ miles. I think this is why many American runners say they work hard when they really don't. They bust out some high mileage for awhile and act like they've done something, and then are mystified as to why they still suck.

Well said.

They bust out some high mileage for awhile and act like they've done something, and then are mystified as to why they still suck.

WELL, THEY'RE ALSO NOT TAKING EPO LIKE THEIR COMPETITORS FROM KENYA AND ETHIOPIA

I like the "indictment" factor you mention in terms of people getting injured from the system. It reminds me of when Timothy Leary died at age 75 of prostate cancer. Everyone was up in arms saying "See! LSD will kill you!" In this case, years of the other LSD won't kill you either. As far as the Bach/Zep analogy: I think most coaches are making quite a leap as you said but not Mark. He is like Led Zeppelin being influenced by the Yar Birds. Lydiard was visiting Mark in the US when he was a HS coach unknown west of Jersey.

I just tell people the chief cause of running injuries is running. In other words, you can't stop running because of the risk involved.

There isn't a system or coach who hasn't had an injured runner. This includes Galloway with his stupid ass bullshit.

Out.

Is that similar to his walking program?

Culpepper doesn't train like that. Ritz doesn't train like that. Dan Browne doesn't train like that. Jason Lunn doesn't train like that. Alan Webb doesn't train like that. Scotty Larson doesn't train like that. Fuck, I'm sure Christian Hesch doesn't train anything like that. I bet not even trackhead trains like that (okay, maybe Matt does).

Who the hell is Jeff Kilgore, and who told him he knows anything about running??

Two observations about Kilgore. One- he is a fairly bright kid who is a running-guru wannabe. Two- nobody loves Kilgore more than Kilgore.

Out

Jay Kai wrote:

Two observations about Kilgore. One- he is a fairly bright kid who is a running-guru wannabe. Two- nobody loves Kilgore more than Kilgore.

Out

I think you are correct on both counts except for the "fairly bright" part. I'm just a wannabe.

The real gurus are guys like malmo and Hodgie-san. When I get depressed about running, I read what those guys had to say along with Lydiard and Wetmore, and I believe again.

I'm just tired of the depressing tone this place has taken recently. I'm probably an idiot, but I still think hard work counts for something. Besides, what else do we have? Goat piss?

Out.

Does anyone know why Wetmore omits Lydiard's hill phase? I remember Ritz recently commenting that his recent hill work was the first he'd done since high school. Perhaps it doesn't fit into the collegiate seasons?

I have come to believe that the Lydiard hill phase, done correctly, can work wonders. My first interval session after completing a recent hill phase was quite eye-opening. I raced fairly well just one week later. A friend who is working through the same program had the exact same experience. You can feel the increased spring in your legs and the greater stride length is noticeable -going faster without turning over faster. It also makes your legs tough as Arthur said it would, preventing injury. By the end of the phase, you have developed ALL the running muscles, beyond their typical running range of motion. BTW, I did all three of his exercises - springing, bounding and high-knees.

Regarding the anaerobic phase: As you can see in Runningart's post above, Arthur did believe in intervals, just not hammering them year-round. For 4 weeks you are doing 3 interval workouts per week, then move to more continuous, time-trial and racing during the coordination phase.

It takes time to get Lydiard. You have to understand not just all the "hows", but also the "whys". Every component has a very solid reason behind it. I am still learning, but I feel that the big picture is coming into focus for me now, and it's quite brilliant.

The reason CU doesn't do hills is probably due to a conflict of schedule rather than a conflict of philosophy. There are 3 competitive seasons in track and it's pretty much impossible to peak 3 times in a year. CU doesn't focus much on indoors but that still leaves two peaks. Lydiard was not a fan of the college schedule from what I've read and for his system it's impossible to do peak for each season while following his philosophy. Perhaps you could use XC as some sort of continuation on the summer's base building and use races as tempos, but you would either sacrifice competition or philosophy, you can't do both.

You can be successful and focus on all three seasons, just look at Arkansas, but that's not anything like a Lydiard system there, but it still works.

Where did you finally find a suitable place to do Artur's hill training? I'm asking because I also live in the Atlanta Metropolitan area.

Stone Mountain is relatively hilly. I go to Atlanta on a regular basis and when I do run it's there. I don't believe the hills have to be extremely steep and those at Stone Mountain should be fine.

we all know the details of lydiard by now. the information is out there for the taking. great work on the summary, alan.

the key point mentioned in this thread, that i think is worth re-iterating - is what people need is patience and faith in the program.

patience. patience. patience. patience. patience.

five years worth of patience.