http://nyti.ms/2e9B3By
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Apparently the testing program, which will contract with USADA, will cost nearly as much ($100,000) as the NYRR pays out annually to amateurs in its smaller, local races ($130,000).
http://nyti.ms/2e9B3By -
"It takes months for them to pay out $500 in prize money, so it will now take longer,†said William du Pont Staab Jr., the president of the West Side Runners Club. “Our runners, they can use their money for their rent.â€
Pay the rent? He's kidding, right? -
No, he's not kidding. His runners are for the most part Africans living many to an apartment in unfashionable neighborhoods. Five hundred can go a long way.
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What Conceivable wrote:
No, he's not kidding. His runners are for the most part Africans living many to an apartment in unfashionable neighborhoods. Five hundred can go a long way.
Name these "unfashionable neighborhoods" where they live .
I did not know that the West Side had no plumbing nor electricity if that is where they truly live .
Don't expect to make a living off this game .
Get a job and race on Sunday like the rest of us schlubs . -
From reviewing recent race results, it appears that West Side Runners still dominates local races. For example, in the Staten Island Half-marathon on October 9, their open men took the top four places and six of the top eight. All of these men list Ethiopia as their country in the results. It seems likely -- and others certainly could speak to this topic with more authority -- that their team may consist of many recent immigrants to the city who may very well depend on road-race winnings to cover part of their living expenses, including their rent.
NY bagel wrote:
"It takes months for them to pay out $500 in prize money, so it will now take longer,†said William du Pont Staab Jr., the president of the West Side Runners Club. “Our runners, they can use their money for their rent.â€
Pay the rent? He's kidding, right? -
NY bagel wrote:
"It takes months for them to pay out $500 in prize money, so it will now take longer,†said William du Pont Staab Jr., the president of the West Side Runners Club. “Our runners, they can use their money for their rent.â€
Pay the rent? He's kidding, right?
I like WSX. They provide opportunities that don't exist in other big cities, or in other big running communities for foreign runners (not just Kenyans and Ethiopians, but recreational runners too). They're not a doping team, like LM Elite, as they have a broad recreational base of participants. But they have several suspicious individuals.
Tesfaye Assefa was banned for not submitting to a doping test. His teammate, Birhanu Kemal, put up the followning progression:
Here is his progression:
2012 2:21:09 Frankfurt Marathon
2013 2:24:01 Rotterdam Marathon
2014 2:17:51. Philly Marathon
2015 2:13:42 at Grandma's and now 2:15:40 NYC
2013/2: No other results than the two marathons above.
2014: 64:57 Louisville HM, 30:54 at Healthy Kidney
2015: 48:20 Bronx 10M, 65:03 at Brooklyn RnR (Week before Des Moines Marathon, 3 weeks before NYC)
More testing needs to be done on sub-elite runners (Take a look around the NE, and you'll often see runners among the top 5 or top 10 from Hebron and WSX). Good for NYRR for setting the standard, and showing that even low-key races can drug test. There are two-three dozen other races that could take a lesson from this... -
Clerk wrote:
NY bagel wrote:
"It takes months for them to pay out $500 in prize money, so it will now take longer,†said William du Pont Staab Jr., the president of the West Side Runners Club. “Our runners, they can use their money for their rent.â€
Pay the rent? He's kidding, right?
I like WSX. They provide opportunities that don't exist in other big cities, or in other big running communities for foreign runners (not just Kenyans and Ethiopians, but recreational runners too). They're not a doping team, like LM Elite, as they have a broad recreational base of participants. But they have several suspicious individuals.
Tesfaye Assefa was banned for not submitting to a doping test. His teammate, Birhanu Kemal, put up the followning progression:
Here is his progression:
2012 2:21:09 Frankfurt Marathon
2013 2:24:01 Rotterdam Marathon
2014 2:17:51. Philly Marathon
2015 2:13:42 at Grandma's and now 2:15:40 NYC
2013/2: No other results than the two marathons above.
2014: 64:57 Louisville HM, 30:54 at Healthy Kidney
2015: 48:20 Bronx 10M, 65:03 at Brooklyn RnR (Week before Des Moines Marathon, 3 weeks before NYC)
More testing needs to be done on sub-elite runners (Take a look around the NE, and you'll often see runners among the top 5 or top 10 from Hebron and WSX). Good for NYRR for setting the standard, and showing that even low-key races can drug test. There are two-three dozen other races that could take a lesson from this...
I wish rigorous testing was put in place across the country. Many of these immigrant runners thrive on these local races that pay $100-3000 Dollars in prize money. You race from late spring through Thanksgiving you can ran in 10s of thousands of dollars. I know a few who in years past pulled in 20-50k.
I myself only made a fair amount of money road racing.
For example I finished highly in a Half/Full Marathon where doper Ezkyas Tsegaya won. Dude got busted for EPO.
Teams like Hebron, KY group are known cheaters coached by Russian Doper coach, Larisa V. Mikhaylova.
The stakes are high for these Kenyans and Ethiopians because the kind of money they can win will supply their families back home. Do it fairly or not at all though.
They really need to clean up the roads. To many sub-elite/elite Africans making a pretty penny cheating. -
"Cleaning up the roads" is really, really difficult to do at a price point that makes sense for such small races. NYRR can do it because they're by far the wealthiest running organization in the world. They had $85 million in revenue last year. I applaud them for taking this step, but it's a symbolic gesture in the scheme of things.
I think our best hope would be for races to adopt policies that runners "may be subjected to drug tests," and then collect urine after every race. The vast majority of these samples need never be tested to get dopers to steer clear, though a handful could be tested. There could even be a road racing antidoping association that race directors could join for a small fee. The organization would randomly select and test a small number of samples, plus any particular samples that RDs flag as suspicious. They could also provide best practices to small time races who don't know much about antidoping. Unlike with Olympic dopers, you don't necessarily need out of competition testing to catch these people. They are racing year 'round, so there's no clear in or out of competition period for them. Their doping regimes are likely less sophisticated. Experience has shown that most people who test positive are b-list road racers rather than premier athletes. This would not solve the problem by any means, but it would cover the low-hanging fruit. It would also potentially help to instill a wider antidoping culture. -
if someone tests positive can the NYRR file charges of some sort civil or criminal for the costs involved in the testing and program administration costs?
Test them and sue them for price of the test of they fail.
How sad is our world these days with amateurs caught up in the win at any cost mindset. -
What Conceivable wrote:
No, he's not kidding. His runners are for the most part Africans living many to an apartment in unfashionable neighborhoods. Five hundred can go a long way.
Morrisania and parts north in the Bronx, we have a winner! -
Not going to be a popular opinion but I have very mixed feelings about this.
I'm on the bubble for NYRR races - top 40 in their big races (including NYCM), top 15 on their thinner races. I'm much slower than the top WSX and NYAC guys but still competitive. I don't cheat and the thought that the guys I race against may not be competing honorably really spoils my enjoyment of racing. Or it would do, if I let it. Instead I'm happy to assume everyone's playing fair and if I should have finished 24th instead of 26th in any given race well, that's sad but not as sad as life must be for someone who'd cheat in a f*cking amateur road race.
The problem is I'm a full time lawyer and can be struck off for evidence of "moral turpitude" losing, for the sake of a hobby, my only means of supporting myself and my family. I don't live like a professional athlete. I eat whatever's put in front of me, drink whatever looks refreshing in a bodega fridge during a long run and will try most any gels or sports drinks. I also take any medicine prescribed to me (but no, I don't have asthma or Wigginsitis). False positives happen to professional athletes - the chance of one happening to me seems very small but still much higher. I'll probably sign the waiver and agree to be tested but NYRR should be cognizant of the risk they're exposing true amateurs to, be very confidant in their testing protocol and be prepared to exercise discretion carefully. -
Bretom wrote:
I also take any medicine prescribed to me (but no, I don't have asthma or Wigginsitis). False positives happen to professional athletes - the chance of one happening to me seems very small but still much higher. I'll probably sign the waiver and agree to be tested but NYRR should be cognizant of the risk they're exposing true amateurs to, be very confidant in their testing protocol and be prepared to exercise discretion carefully.
It's USADA doing the testing, right? Once they test, NYRR doesn't have any say in what happens or the penalties. It's not NYRR's protocol and they can't collect urine and not test because _they_ aren't the ones collecting, USADA DCOs are.
It would behoove you to research TUEs and call USADA to check any medication you are prescribed if you aren't 100% sure. That's the biggest thing tripping up recreational athletes, not getting a TUE in advance for stuff that is eligible for TUEs.
But if you're finishing 26th in races you're really unlikely to actually get tested. I'm guessing the focus will be on prize money people, unless USADA has a tip about someone in particular.
Your concerns are justified, the process is not perfect. -
Bretom wrote:
Not going to be a popular opinion but I have very mixed feelings about this.
I'm on the bubble for NYRR races - top 40 in their big races (including NYCM), top 15 on their thinner races. I'm much slower than the top WSX and NYAC guys but still competitive. I don't cheat and the thought that the guys I race against may not be competing honorably really spoils my enjoyment of racing. Or it would do, if I let it. Instead I'm happy to assume everyone's playing fair and if I should have finished 24th instead of 26th in any given race well, that's sad but not as sad as life must be for someone who'd cheat in a f*cking amateur road race.
The problem is I'm a full time lawyer and can be struck off for evidence of "moral turpitude" losing, for the sake of a hobby, my only means of supporting myself and my family. I don't live like a professional athlete. I eat whatever's put in front of me, drink whatever looks refreshing in a bodega fridge during a long run and will try most any gels or sports drinks. I also take any medicine prescribed to me (but no, I don't have asthma or Wigginsitis). False positives happen to professional athletes - the chance of one happening to me seems very small but still much higher. I'll probably sign the waiver and agree to be tested but NYRR should be cognizant of the risk they're exposing true amateurs to, be very confidant in their testing protocol and be prepared to exercise discretion carefully.
More than a valid point. Getting to understand the USADA code and getting TUES is just not a 30 second task. From the excuses the pro use OTC supplements and boosts, gels and assorted whatnots are all rife with chances to accidently ingest banned substances. -
Bretom wrote:
The problem is I'm a full time lawyer and can be struck off for evidence of "moral turpitude" losing, for the sake of a hobby, my only means of supporting myself and my family. I don't live like a professional athlete. I eat whatever's put in front of me, drink whatever looks refreshing in a bodega fridge during a long run and will try most any gels or sports drinks. I also take any medicine prescribed to me (but no, I don't have asthma or Wigginsitis).
I respect your opinion and your honesty, but I think that if you are going to compete in this sport and dedicate hours to training, you can dedicate a bit of time to researching and complying with the rules that apply to you.
I'm asthmatic and also have autoimmune issues. Several times now I've been prescribed something that was banned - I looked it up before taking it, and then contact the doctor and asked them to prescribe something else that was legal.
It's not THAT hard to stay on top of these rules. Just search Global DRO regularly, and be really careful at the CVS/Whole Foods Supplement aisle.
I'm also an attorney and member of the Bar. I honestly wish they'd test my local races regularly, and I really look forward to the day I'm tested. -
Bretom wrote:... I eat whatever's put in front of me, drink whatever looks refreshing in a bodega fridge during a long run and will try most any gels or sports drinks. I also take any medicine prescribed to me (but no, I don't have asthma or Wigginsitis). False positives happen to professional athletes - the chance of one happening to me seems very small but still much higher. I'll probably sign the waiver and agree to be tested but NYRR should be cognizant of the risk they're exposing true amateurs to, be very confidant in their testing protocol and be prepared to exercise discretion carefully.
You're building on a few assumptions that you have no basis for. I know it's not what you meant, but strictly speaking, false positives don't happen. The testing methods and results management process mean that there is a positive test only if a substance was present.
What you're talking about is no-fault or negligent ADRV (rule violations). Yes, there are probably legitimate cases where athletes did not mean to take a PED. But then the results management, appeal, and arbitration process step in. These cases are what are informing your idea that so many athletes face "false positives". But the system is designed exactly for that purpose, so much that doping athletes can easily hide behind the procedures laid out to make their doping appear as no-fault cases.
With regard to your responsibility, you may not like it, but that is absolutely your responsibility as an athlete, the same way it is a driver's responsibility to know how much alcohol they've consumed, or to know how the weather conditions effect the driving situation.
You write as if this drug testing is some new fangled idea put out by the local homeowners association. The system has been in place for years, and is constantly being refined. -
You're probably right. I could do this, the question is do I want to? I know that sounds petulant and NYRR races are, obviously, NYRR's sandbox. I just never imagined that something I do for fun might require the sort of diligence and care that we expect as the cost of doing this sport professionally.
To give an example, the last medicine I look - about 6 months ago - was steroidal but I guarantee was not performance enhancing. In fact it was very embarrassing and the only PRs I set were to and from the bathroom. I've no idea if I would have tested positive in that period and I never had reason to care. Legitimate medical need, no intent to cheat and no benefit I could perceive.
The question is whether we think there are enough amateurs doping that deterring them warrants deterring the participation of runners for whom navigating the TUE system and carefully monitoring what they eat and drink seems like too much hassle for 5 mile races in Central Park.
To one of the posters above, I do agree this is probably moot in my case but 15 runners in front of me and you're well into true local elite territory and most of those guys have jobs too so I think it's incumbent on all of us to make sure the balance gets struck in the right place. -
Clerk wrote:
Bretom wrote:... I eat whatever's put in front of me, drink whatever looks refreshing in a bodega fridge during a long run and will try most any gels or sports drinks. I also take any medicine prescribed to me (but no, I don't have asthma or Wigginsitis). False positives happen to professional athletes - the chance of one happening to me seems very small but still much higher. I'll probably sign the waiver and agree to be tested but NYRR should be cognizant of the risk they're exposing true amateurs to, be very confidant in their testing protocol and be prepared to exercise discretion carefully.
You're building on a few assumptions that you have no basis for. I know it's not what you meant, but strictly speaking, false positives don't happen. The testing methods and results management process mean that there is a positive test only if a substance was present.
What you're talking about is no-fault or negligent ADRV (rule violations). Yes, there are probably legitimate cases where athletes did not mean to take a PED. But then the results management, appeal, and arbitration process step in. These cases are what are informing your idea that so many athletes face "false positives". But the system is designed exactly for that purpose, so much that doping athletes can easily hide behind the procedures laid out to make their doping appear as no-fault cases.
With regard to your responsibility, you may not like it, but that is absolutely your responsibility as an athlete, the same way it is a driver's responsibility to know how much alcohol they've consumed, or to know how the weather conditions effect the driving situation.
You write as if this drug testing is some new fangled idea put out by the local homeowners association. The system has been in place for years, and is constantly being refined.
I agree with most of what you wrote and yes, I am, for the most part talking about inadvertant positives (though see the Irish sprinter for a recent example of a true false positive). My point(s) are (1) I'm not going to live a hyper-vigilant quasi-professional life and am not particularly interested in navigating the TUE system if a PCP gives me a completely run of the mill prescription, (2) I also take no comfort in the idea that were I to be popped by NYRR (and doubtless made the news as an example of the important strides they're making in the fight against doping), I'd have lots of expensive, time-consuming appeal rights and (3) any real risk that any of this could happen is not one I can run - personally or professionally.
To be clear, cheating is incomprehensible to me and my entire enjoyment of this sport is predicated on the idea that I'm competing cleanly against other clean athletes. I just hope everyone the sport is thinking carefully as they foist professional responsibilities on amateur athletes and amateur athletes think carefully before they agree to shoulder them. -
Bretom wrote:
You're probably right. I could do this, the question is do I want to? I know that sounds petulant and NYRR races are, obviously, NYRR's sandbox. I just never imagined that something I do for fun might require the sort of diligence and care that we expect as the cost of doing this sport professionally.
To give an example, the last medicine I look - about 6 months ago - was steroidal but I guarantee was not performance enhancing. In fact it was very embarrassing and the only PRs I set were to and from the bathroom. I've no idea if I would have tested positive in that period and I never had reason to care. Legitimate medical need, no intent to cheat and no benefit I could perceive.
It's worth checking - might have been totally legal. Many oral corticosteroids are legal out of competition, though not in. The rules are not as onerous as people think, when you actually read them.
And personally, I know that once one enters one's 40s, there's a lot of encouragment to go on "anti-aging drugs" - DHEA, HGH, microscopic amounts of testosterone as part of therapy for menopausal symptoms. And of course, the recipients start feeling great and start running PRs in their mid 40s. And are sure they're not doping because it's not EPO and it's prescribed by a physician for a "medical condition" - aging. I'd really love to see a critical eye, and testing, applied to that. -
You severely underestimate how much these people are willing to "under live" most of us.
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darkwave wrote:
Bretom wrote:
You're probably right. I could do this, the question is do I want to? I know that sounds petulant and NYRR races are, obviously, NYRR's sandbox. I just never imagined that something I do for fun might require the sort of diligence and care that we expect as the cost of doing this sport professionally.
To give an example, the last medicine I look - about 6 months ago - was steroidal but I guarantee was not performance enhancing. In fact it was very embarrassing and the only PRs I set were to and from the bathroom. I've no idea if I would have tested positive in that period and I never had reason to care. Legitimate medical need, no intent to cheat and no benefit I could perceive.
It's worth checking - might have been totally legal. Many oral corticosteroids are legal out of competition, though not in. The rules are not as onerous as people think, when you actually read them.
And personally, I know that once one enters one's 40s, there's a lot of encouragment to go on "anti-aging drugs" - DHEA, HGH, microscopic amounts of testosterone as part of therapy for menopausal symptoms. And of course, the recipients start feeling great and start running PRs in their mid 40s. And are sure they're not doping because it's not EPO and it's prescribed by a physician for a "medical condition" - aging. I'd really love to see a critical eye, and testing, applied to that.
Agree. I'll be hitting my 40s in a couple of years and have no interest in any of that BS. If I ever change my mind I'll quietly step away from competitive sport whether a TUE is available or not.
