Sub-2:20 Marathon Training: Lookibg for Input

Sub,

I ran 2:19:15 Boston 1974 and coached a sub-2:20 guy back in 1987. More recently I ran 2:57 in 2005 at age 54. So I have the perspective of an old timer and using some of the newer training techniques.

So, the first thought of mine was why not more doubles? I would run doubles as a young man and masters. Typically I would double 5-6 days a week. By doing so you could be more consistent running 100-140 miles a week. You may have more talent than I where this is not necessary.

Next thought, it looks like you are doing 1-2 quality workouts plus one long run a week. Perhaps I am not reading the schedule correctly. I like the construction of the individual workout, but think you should work toward 2-3 quality sessions a week.

Lastly, about five weeks out I would do 14 miles @ 5:18 per mile, and three weeks out 16 miles @ 5:18 per mile. I would shorten my recover on MP and HMP repetitive runs to 60 seconds from 120 or 150.

Hope this helps and good luck.

Igy

Igy,

Thanks a ton for the well wishes, but more so, the suggestions!

To the topic of higher mileage/more doubles, I have some lingering health issues that limit my ability for as high of mileage. Additionally, when I was younger I did spend quite a bit of time in the 120-130 range off doubles and had a number of injuries creep up. Conversely, my best times and sharpest improvements came off a year where I averaged just a hair under 91 miles a week for the year and it was all singles. As I've returned to high quality training, I've tried to learn from my past successes and failures; I'd love to hit 140's, but just not sure my body would handle it.

To clarify, I was intending one big workout early week (usually Tuesday), long run on Saturday/Sunday. Over the last few months I've done a second, light quality workout later in the week (Thursday/Friday). On weeks that I didn't, I usually would have a little more aggressive run (12-14 miles at 5:45-6:00/mile).

Thanks again!

Sub-2:20,

Another idea fthat may just be beneficial for you is "bunching." it works like this example: Saturday: AM long marathon specific workout of 18 miles or more; PM workout of easy 4 miles; Sunday: AM workout of 4 easy miles. You just ran a total of 26 miles within 24 hours or so.

Good luck.

Igy

Igy,

Sounds like we think alike - for the last year or so, that's exactly how I've structured weekends, though mostly singles. On the weekends, occasionally I'll hit a 2nd run after my long run, but a typical weekend lately has been 15 miles Friday PM, 15 miles Saturday AM, long run Sunday AM. Over Labor Day weekend, I had 62 miles over 4 runs from Friday PM to Monday AM (15, 15, 22, 10).

Thanks again!

What are your current race tims?

You know your body, so if you cant do any more mileage reliably don't try it (yet). How are you outside of running - sleep, diet etc.?

be careful of life stress (job, relationships, noisy neighbors, etc) on top of running stress, we often forget that one. if your singles work and you're healthy, stick with it. don't change it if doubles might just help, staying healthy is far, far more important.

i preferred a wednesday workout after a hard weekend long run rather than tuesday, more recovery helped. if the long run was especially hard i wouldn't do anything until the following weekend.

i liked the approach of faster work (mile to 5k efforts) in the 1st segment, then 5k and 1/2 work and a little mp, then mp at end. how much of the 5k/half work would depend on length of cycle.

careful with how much mp work you do*; the really long stuff of 12+ miles in a workout, both in terms of time (probably no more than 6 weeks was best for me), and amount of times you do it each week. i've seen a lot of people go really stale on doing mp for weeks on end...

i liked either a mid-week mp work then long run easy with a 5k/10k workout or something like straights/curves also that week to keep up some faster running (this would be end of cycle last couple months). that would be my concern for your last stage, so much mp each week (looks like 2x/week sometimes).

* i think i wound up doing more long runs with long work slightly slower than mp and surges (say 3x3-4 miles within long run or even the wednesday workouts) slightly faster than mp rather than anything at goal pace. i also did a decent number of progression runs for the longer workouts (wed or long run).

Southerner,

Glad to offer some views from a guy that's been around. But like most ideas I acquired them over time or based on experience. The "bunching" term and concept came from an email exchange with Jack Daniels, so that's where credit belongs. The year was 2005, and worked well from a practical sense. It seems to me one should always be challenging the system without red lining. I visualize it as a sine curve on an incline.

Igy

Caveat: I am an old timer....I coached myself, and I'm the only runner I've ever coached, so my sample size is only 1.

I am in broad agreement with your general approach, and would make a few observations / ideas to kick around:

- Sleep is a big piece of the puzzle, do not skimp.

- Like others have suggested, I liked doubles. I liked that doubling (for the same overall mileage as with singles) could allow you to do more of your running at higher quality. I did 4-5 doubles per week. Preferred short in the AM, main run in PM (such as 3mi / 11mi).

- I recommend doing some of your quality days with long repeats (miles, 1ks, 5ks, etc), on your regular running routes -- different topographies, not a track or the same loop again and again.

- I liked to pepper in shorter intervals in every phase, once every week or 10 days -- with less rest than your plan -- examples 8x800 / 400m jog rest...16x400 with 100m jog....20x400 / 200 jog...24x200 w/20sec rest....etc.

- I liked to have a "down" week every 4 weeks. Helps rest-recharge and lessen risk of injury. If you are doubling, it can be as easy as cutting out a few/all of your doubles.

- I liked a 3-week taper, sharply lower mileage...last long run 21 days out, 15mi run 14 days out, 10mi 1 week out. Total weekly miles would be 75% of peak in the third-to-last week, then 50-60% of peak, and just 35% of peak in the final week.

- I liked shorter, faster intervals during this period - -200s-300s-400s at mile or 3000 race pace, and long rest between. Keeps you feeling active and speedy without taxing you too much -- the last 10 days are just "busy work:" anyway. My go-to workout with 5 days to go is 6x300 with 2:00 rest.